#65 | Winning at Global Business

Hakan Ozsancak, EVP Chief Finance and Communications Officer for Washington Institute for Business, Government, and Society, has lived in 7 countries and speaks 5 languages.

If he doesn’t feel like he fits in, it’s not “others” that make him feel different, he looks for what he can do himself to get along.

Listen to this interesting discussion about what it takes to win at cross cultural and global business.

Connect with Wendy - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendypease/

Connect with Hakan - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hakanozsancak/

Music: Fiddle-De-Dee by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com



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ATTENTION: Below is a machine generated transcription of the podcast. Yes, at Rapport International, we talk a lot about how machine translation is not good quality. Here you see an example of what a machine can do in your own your language. This transcription is provided as a gist and to give time indicators to find a topic of interest.


[00:00:34] Wendy: Hello, everybody to the. Episode of the global marketing show podcast. As always, we're sponsored by Rapport International who focuses on high quality written translation and spoken interpretation. They're really good at answering your questions if you have to communicate with anybody internationally, but rather than talking about that in more detail, I am going to [00:01:00] welcome Hakan Ozsancak today.

[00:01:03] He is the EVP and chief finance and communications officer at Washington Institute for business, business, government, and society. He's got a real exciting background of working at the AP and working at China central TV. And he is a person who breaks silos all over the world. So welcome

[00:01:26] Hakan: Hakan. Thank you so much, Wendy.

[00:01:28] Thanks so much for having me here. [00:01:30] Yeah.

[00:01:30] Wendy: So you, you gave me a great quote about silos. So I had to, I had to introduce you that way. You want to share that awesome quote you

[00:01:39] Hakan: have. Yeah, it's actually I need to make sure that it's attributed to our CEO and founder at the Washington Institute, Jim Moore, who I've known for over a decade.

[00:01:47] He says silos are for farmers. Which I think is just a fantastic line. And I know he uses this, he uses it a bit, but I think it's just such a great line. And so correct. I'm in the corporate. It

[00:01:59] Wendy: [00:02:00] is, it is actually fantastic. I just, I love that. All right. So tell me what you do with the washing to an Institute for business, government and society.

[00:02:08] And I just, I mean, I'm, I'm pretty excited to explore your mind more because somebody who heads up finance and communications is a special person. Yeah,

[00:02:19] Hakan: it's, I think we're a bit of a rare breed. But I think it's because of my background from, you know, having had, you know, 17 years experience in broadcast journalism, like you mentioned that the AP and [00:02:30] CCTV, and then doing my executive MBA and then getting into more of the business side of things and having that kind of finance, understanding and PNL management skills as well.

[00:02:39] So it's, I think it's a. You know, we used to call that in journalism, a combination platter. So it's a, I think it's a good combination platter to have and, you know, yeah. So it's been, of course, you know, like any, any organization, you know, we've had of course challenges due to the coronavirus, you know, the pandemic itself.

[00:02:55] So we've been, you know, very quick on our feet. We've been able to do. Really great pivot [00:03:00] going from kind of in person events to lots of virtual events as well. So I've been focusing on that quite a bit, of course, from a communication standpoint, a lot of in marketing, you know, the newsletters again, fireside chats webinars, you know, we'd be focusing on that quite a bit.

[00:03:13] Wendy: The Washington

[00:03:14] Hakan: Institute. So the Washington Institute for business government society is a, it's still a startup we've been around for about three years. It's a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit, and we focus on three things, three main pillars, which is corporate social responsibility. Technology and [00:03:30] innovation and the global economy, our CEO and founder was assistant secretary of commerce on there, Ronald Reagan.

[00:03:36] And then he taught at Georgetown's McDonald's school of business for a long time. So of course the global economy is right up. His alley is his Bailey wick. So that's one of the pillars and then corporate social responsibility as being a nonprofit that is. Of course action oriented. It's really important for us.

[00:03:53] For example, we're watching very closely, of course, what's happening at the cop 26. We had a session with one of our fellows Dr. Isabella [00:04:00] bun from Oxford Analytica. She's our fellow on corporate social responsibility. She just had a session on the sidelines last week with another of our. Advisory council members and also a professor from Oxford focusing on everything in corporate social responsibility, governance, sustainability, all of these really important issues.

[00:04:17] And what we do is we, we're not, we're not a traditional, we're not a think tank. So we don't publish, you know, pieces in research papers every week. But what we do is we convene people together, but then what we focus on is. [00:04:30] Actionable impact. How do we create impact out of the events that we bring people together globally?

[00:04:36] Wendy: Isn't that fascinating? Okay. Cause when you were describing it, I was thinking, oh, it's, it's a think tank and you're educating and publishing, but you're really pulling people together.

[00:04:46] Hakan: Right. Well, what's funny is so Wharton's Lauder Institute has actually designated as one of the most 50 innovative startup think tanks.

[00:04:54] Out of a group of like a thousands. And we accept that and we're very happy about that designation, but we just want to make sure [00:05:00] that we go that kind of one step further as well. And focusing again on action and impact and bringing together people from youth business, government society, global leaders together.

[00:05:09] And then how do we focus on recommendations? For example, one of our major events that we just had in mid-September was a global sports conference, which was called, you know, unity through sports. Looking at Tokyo, the Beijing games coming up and the guitar will cup using that as a peg to get into a conversation, talking about gender equity, diversity inclusion all kinds of different [00:05:30] air sports diplomacy was one of the big areas.

[00:05:32] And so now we're focusing on a major impact reports based out of the conference and the lessons learned so that we can say, for example, in gen directly, Here's the issue that we're addressing. And then in the subsequent years, we can look back and say, here are some areas that still need progress. Here are some recommendations that we had made, and here's the kind of progress report that we're looking at it as well.

[00:05:54] So again, like something that is very actionable as well and impactful. And I keep on [00:06:00] saying that word, but it's really important.

[00:06:01] Wendy: Right, right, right. Yeah. No, it, it, it makes me, my parents were professors and they talked about applied research a lot. So what is it that you can take and apply as opposed to doing pure research and there's a space for both, but it really thinks like you're, you're taking and, and you know, you're doing the real application.

[00:06:20] Let's start just, just research, but why are we researching to get to where. I want to

[00:06:25] Hakan: go right in there. We actually have, we have a fantastic university [00:06:30] consortium actually made up of some of the biggest universities in the world. You know, the Princetons, the Columbia is the Browns, the Georgetowns, the Georgia tech.

[00:06:36] So the world. So we work closely with them as well. But to your point, then it's about bringing that together with actionable impact and what comes out of these important, you know, cause get togethers because the word convene is not. Enough right. You need to go. One step forward. Convening is really important.

[00:06:54] Bringing people together from business governance, society, public private partnerships. In other area that we focus [00:07:00] on the cyber sector. We have a very good relationship with the new cyber director, Chris Inglis, who was one of the commissioners of the U S cyberspace solarium commission. So we've done events with them, but again, like in that case, some of those recommendations then went in to the national defense authorization act into the NDA.

[00:07:16] We did similar work with the national security commission and artificial intelligence as well, which was led by Eric Schmidt, former Google as well. And again, there, we focused on how do we bring the public and private sectors to. And focusing on these issues. [00:07:30]

[00:07:30] Wendy: Okay. So there there's a lot and a lot of different avenues I could go down to, but I want to go back to sports because a lot of people can really relate to that.

[00:07:38] And it was very interesting to me that you said global and sports and gender because in a lot of countries in the world, women don't play sports. And so, you know, I mean, a lot of places in the world, women don't get education, but how are you looking at sports for gender equity? Like how do you break that down and make [00:08:00] that something equitable when you have a culture where it's just not accepted or done.

[00:08:04] Wow.

[00:08:05] Hakan: And it's, I think I'm one of our, so what we've done is in one of our fireside chats conversations, that was part of the conference. We had four amazing. Speak about this issue of gender equity in sports. And now what has happened is we're working so closely with them and I, what I call them as they're our ambassadors talking about this issue of gender equity in sports, and it applies to society.

[00:08:26] We have an amazing partnership with Westerman, who they represent a [00:08:30] lot of athletes. I think something like half of the women's soccer team, you know, a lot of athletes in the U S and globally. And they have a think tank called the collective and the collectives kind of core mission statement is actually focused on gender equity itself.

[00:08:47] So again, we're working with them closely. And what we decided was that rather than, you know, Uncovering and have five different issues on in gender equity. We're going to be focusing on one. So for example, this Friday, we actually have our next [00:09:00] meeting where we're going to be talking about brainstorming about what issue we should be raising in our impact report.

[00:09:05] That's going to be coming out in early 20, 22. We're working closely with UNESCO. They're one of our.

[00:09:11] Wendy: Okay. So you're brainstorming about what, what one of the issues would be, give me some examples of what could some of the options be? Is it more women to play soccer or is it like, how do you, how do you make that?

[00:09:27] Hakan: Sure. Sure, but in our case, [00:09:30] sure. In our case, it's not just about against sports. It's about how that's applied to the rest of society as well. So for example, one of our partners DC scores, fantastic nonprofit works with the Washington spirit in these so United here as well. Their premise is, you know, supporting, especially young young girls and boys through not only soccer, but also poetry classes as well.

[00:09:49] So in this case, it's about instilling, you know, mental and physical wellness. But also supporting that with the amongst girls and women as well. We've had a, you know, major scandals and [00:10:00] soccer lately in the United States. So I think the time is right to actually address these challenges and issues. But I think there's some opportunities with.

[00:10:09] Know, we have the women's world cup coming up in 2023. And then with the United cup coming here, the men's soccer world cup in 2026 in north America. I think it's a fantastic opportunity for us to address these issues and challenges, but also come up with opportunities and recommendations as well. So,

[00:10:28] Wendy: so do you take [00:10:30] like something like GC scores and then try to take that international.

[00:10:35] Hakan: Yeah. I mean, I think that's something that we're looking at. And again, with someone like UNESCO, they have a fit fitness for life program that we're supporting quite a bit as well. Another one is the national fitness foundation that we work closely with. They are actually part of the president's council that was created way back when, under president Eisenhower and they're the charity arm.

[00:10:54] And in that case, again, it's about the mental and physical wellbeing. And how do we support [00:11:00] young people in this case? We're not just focusing on gender equity, just to be clear. Gender equity is one of our chapters that we're focusing on. Then we focus on diversity inclusion. For example, the head of the international Olympic committee, Andrew Parsons is writing the forward on inclusivity for our impact.

[00:11:17] Because he was also parts. He also participated in our conference as well, very actively. So we're promoting that. Actually, I'm speaking to a young Paralympian and her family tomorrow, and she's 14 years old from [00:11:30] Uganda, a Paralympian swimmer. She was the youngest and the. Paralympics, but she's become a spokes person for the Paralympic movement as well.

[00:11:37] So we're going to be incorporating what she brings to the table as well. So there's a lot going on in this space, but I think it's inspirational too, because it's the way how we can apply what we learned from sports and the rest of society is.

[00:11:50] Wendy: Right. So I just have to mention if anybody's listening to this and you haven't watched the Paralympics, you definitely have to turn on the next time they're on because I mean, I'm [00:12:00] blown away by watching the Olympics and what those bodies can do and accomplish in sports.

[00:12:04] But the Paralympics just left my jaw, hanging down and speechless with with what they could do.

[00:12:12] Hakan: And credit goes to the U S OPC, which I believe you know, with the prices for them. They made it actually equity equal price. Now whether you're a pro Paralympian or you're Olympian as well. Oh, that's

[00:12:23] Wendy: fantastic.

[00:12:23] And some of the the, some of the swimming times were faster than the able-bodied swimmers. You know, you [00:12:30] imagine swimming without arms and being able to, to beat the times. Yeah. Yeah. So, but anyway, we're, we're sidetracking. Okay. So you're working on all sorts of global stuff. You're pulling people in and you're communicating across languages and cultures.

[00:12:46] DEI is huge here in the United States. It's it may not be as important in other countries. How, how do you work across languages and cultures to come to consensus on. Well, you [00:13:00] know, what your actionable goals are going to be?

[00:13:02] Hakan: Well, that's a great question, Wendy. And as it happens just personally, you know, I, I I'm lucky enough that I was, you know, I lived in seven countries and I speak five languages.

[00:13:11] My mother is a linguist, I think is a little bit genetic as well. I, I think I got the skills from her. But beyond that we've had in our small team, quite a few people who speak other languages as well, including Arabic and other languages to Mandarin. So what we've done is we've been really smart about, of course, using those skillsets [00:13:30] to be able to get in touch with folks as well.

[00:13:31] And even when we're reaching out to, for example, a major university at CN SPO you know, Paris, we were one of our interns. We helped me. He's from Morocco originally, and he helped us out quite a bit kind of getting the message out to them in that case, in communicating. But you're right. That, you know, DNI is important here in the U S but also I do think, you know, more needs to be done, of course, in that space.

[00:13:55] I do think that every day you're seeing a new announcement on LinkedIn and elsewhere of [00:14:00] someone who's like, you know, chief people's officer or more and more people being announced about you know, DNI as well. But back to your question, I think it's just about, you know, kind of just. Hitting it hard, making sure that people get it incorporate it's in our DNA.

[00:14:13] Now what I was saying is just keep on like hitting it hard on that issue as well from a cross-cultural communication standpoint as well.

[00:14:20] I think that that's critical to be able to do, but we are seeing it more and more also in other parts of the world as well in our own. Oh, you are

[00:14:28] Wendy: okay. Okay. [00:14:30] So in language you've had internal employees that are bilingual that can help you communicate and reach out

[00:14:37] Hakan: trilingual, bilingual, all kinds of folks.

[00:14:39] Yeah, that's good. We're a very global organization. Despite being in a Washington Institute, we're also involved. We have places in Singapore, Oxford. In Paris as well. We're looking at you know, certain places in the middle east as well, and also Silicon valley, because one of the other areas that we focus on is technology and innovation again, but also kind of like [00:15:00] the divide between Silicon valley and Washington DC as well.

[00:15:04] Important area that we look at as one there's so much going on in that space too. Oh, it's

[00:15:08] Wendy: huge. So you've got employees that can reach out and do the research, but then when you gathered the people together and they all speak different languages, how are you doing? You're meeting

[00:15:19] Hakan: our meetings are, I mean, they're in English.

[00:15:21] And. You know, everybody does speak English fluently as well, but, you know, it's, if there's anything that on the side, you know, if there's anything emails or [00:15:30] messages, you know, I've done them in French and Spanish and other languages, Turkish as well. I have one of our associates is actually also Turkish American like me.

[00:15:37] So we'll talk sometimes in Turkish as well. And. You know, even during our morning meetings, we have a morning meeting every morning and sometimes, you know, we'll be the first to, to join in and we'll start speaking in Turkish and our CEO will join in and start laughing as well. Cause he won't understand the word.

[00:15:51] But yeah, it's, it's a very, but you'll, you, you'll probably gathered from my background that whatever I've done has always been a very multicultural [00:16:00] cross-cultural as well, whether it was a day P or CCTV, or now at the Washington Institute, it's that going to bring those different groups? And a very diverse way in a very rich way.

[00:16:11] And I, I, I do believe that's, you know, some of the secret sauce comes from that, right. Being able to bring together different groups together successfully. Oh, that

[00:16:19] Wendy: is, that is such a skill. And it is a secret sauce for achieving great things. I mean, all the research shows that, so yeah. Tell me more about the, when you worked for [00:16:30] CCTV or China's central TV.

[00:16:34] Yeah,

[00:16:36] Hakan: so it's China central television. But then in which, so it was CCTV America. When I joined in 2011, I was recruited having worked 10 years at the AP. And this is when they decided to come and open a broadcast center in Washington alongside another one in Nigeria. Since then they've also opened another one in London as well, but in, I can't remember the exact year, but at some point [00:17:00] there was a name change.

[00:17:00] It became China global television network for the entity here in the U S so CCTV, CGTN basically the same thing. That point. Yeah, it was a great experience. I, I spent a good seven years there. Executive leadership had a sizable team. Really enjoyed it. I was also doing my executive MBA in the last two, two and a half, two years while I was there too as well.

[00:17:20] So it was, you know, a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun as well, bringing together different workflows, you know, from Beijing and I, Ruby and DC, bringing it together [00:17:30] to make it look as cohesive as possible.

[00:17:32] Wendy: So, what was their goal for coming into the U S market? Were they doing Chinese TV or were

[00:17:39] Hakan: they, so this is English.

[00:17:41] This is an English, but there's different languages as well. But the broadcast center here, you know, broadcast in English, the idea is just to be able to be asleep. Do you knew. Yeah, just like other organizations, you know, at the time, you know, to BBC's elders, ear and other as well. So I did just want to make sure with China's, you know, opening up more and more that they also wanted to [00:18:00] have a broadcast center here in Washington.

[00:18:01] And as I sit in Nairobi as well. Oh,

[00:18:04] Wendy: okay. Okay. So now I get it more. All right. So your original originally from Turkey. Right. And how long have you been in the United

[00:18:14] Hakan: States? Way too long? No, I'm joking. Or how old were you when you

[00:18:18] Wendy: came

[00:18:19] Hakan: here? I was 16 and a half as a freshman in college. When I came here for American university here in Washington, DC.

[00:18:28] So I've been in the Washington [00:18:30] DC area for now almost 27 and a half 28 years.

[00:18:34] Wendy: Okay. So you went through college and a lot of your career living in the United States. And so China TV comes in, right? You're Americanized enough where you'd know like the different perspective they've have, what was their.

[00:18:52] Like culture conflict with how they were reporting news with how you would see it in the United

[00:18:57] Hakan: States. Well, I, I do think the leadership [00:19:00] that came here, especially originally a lot of them were Western educated as well. So I think that that helped a lot to overcome, you know, of course there were areas that, you know, there were differences and, but I think there was an, especially in the beginning, there was an opening.

[00:19:17] To be able to do business. And again, there was, you know, will, and they wanted to do it, as I said, you know, from like, like the Algiers diseases and BBC's of the world and just do it from a very global perspective, you know, [00:19:30] and especially we did a lot of business news as well. And from, from that, there wasn't really much that they were saying like, do it this or this way or that way, you know, we had a good opportunity to be able to do some really solid stuff.

[00:19:43] Wendy: And what were you reporting on it? So you said global news from all over, but talking about Chinese companies or w what was the, why would anybody turn tune

[00:19:55] Hakan: into it? Sure. I mean, from it, yes. I mean, there was definitely global news. So if there was, you know, a [00:20:00] major summit happening, for example, the cop 26, in that case, you know, whatever the number was.

[00:20:05] Right. You know, we wouldn't be covering that, but naturally there would be emphasis. This year, China didn't, you know, Xi, Jinping didn't attend, but at that point, you know, they'd be attending. So we'd be focusing on them, bringing guests to talk about, for example, U S China relations or in that case, you know, Chinese emphasis on, for example, climate change and sustain sustainability and their efforts working on that as well.

[00:20:28] So [00:20:30] educating, you know, a. Educated in a class of individuals who would want to know more about China and new business in China as well. That was the target audience.

[00:20:42] Wendy: Okay. And where can people find it? Like I'd like to go

[00:20:45] listen,

[00:20:46] Hakan: I'm sure you can. It's live streaming. So I, I believe you can still go CGTN america.com and you can just check it out that way.

[00:20:53] So, you know, there, when I left, you know, this was in July of 2018. [00:21:00] You know, at that point it was six hours of programming coming from, coming from Washington DC. So yeah, it was, you can just go to CGTN america.com and watch it that way.

[00:21:09] Wendy: Okay. And then tell me about the AP. Like, did you immediately get him involved in in global business?

[00:21:17] Hakan: Yeah. I mean, I was pretty junior when I first started, this was a few weeks before nine 11, so I had to learn very fast. And I, I didn't of course, you know, this was very junior. I used to also bartend and in the evenings as [00:21:30] well, just to make some extra money, but, you know, it was a very of course, intense period of us and global history.

[00:21:36] You know, I learned very fast. I learned a real cause, but I had some really great mentors. It's AP as well, who kind of took me under their wings as well and helped me out in the process. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a global agency. It's the oldest news agency of course, in the world. So again, with my background and what the P stood for as an agency and providing.

[00:21:57] Really stamped, solid [00:22:00] journalism. It was very global from the beginning. So I got, I found myself, you know, not bringing only my skillsets in being that kind of globally minded person, but also everything that we did had a global touch to it

[00:22:11] Wendy: as well. Right. Right. So you mentioned that you lived in seven countries, so Turkey and the us, we got two of them.

[00:22:19] What were the other ones that, at what point in your life did you live there?

[00:22:22] Hakan: So I lived in Egypt as a kid in Switzerland. France, it was a semester abroad [00:22:30] and Germany. I was a kid that, that was actually in the eighties. That's when the Lockerbie incident happened. And I was going to, you know, a military military school.

[00:22:38] That was just part of like the base there in the Munich area. And so it was interesting times for sure. But yeah, it's

[00:22:45] Wendy: just that what was, what was going on and what did you experience and

[00:22:48] Hakan: remember? I mean, it was, it's actually hilarious because German at that time, So, and actually English. So this was 1983.

[00:22:58] So I'll [00:23:00] try to remember this correctly. So again, I'm my, my parents of course are Turkers so Turkish is my native language. And then in Egypt, I also learned a little bit of Arabic and French. And somebody, by the time we got to Munich, Germany, I didn't speak actually a word of English. I was only six years old.

[00:23:16] And so, but they put me into the American school there and I remembered the first two weeks. My mother actually, as I bring, coming into the class as well to sit with me, but within two weeks I had had. And I told her that it was time for her to [00:23:30] leave and I started conversing pretty much fluently.

[00:23:32] And you know, it's, it's amazing how at, at the age of six, right, you're a sponge and you just absorb everything. And I was able to kind of tell her that it's time for her too, that she could go home now. And I was very happy with my classmates and everything else. So it was a really good experience to be there.

[00:23:48] In Germany and data's really enjoyed it again. The American school again, that's where I started misspeaking English. And I think what happened is in 87, we went to Turkey back home. My father's term in [00:24:00] Germany had ended. And so I went to a really good school in Ankara Turkey. And you know, my English was probably.

[00:24:06] I'm not going to say better, but it was really quite advanced for, you know, coming from an American school in Germany. So I think I was pretty cocky and not really listening too much to my teachers. So, and I ended up in the principal's office quite a few times back in the day. But the good thing is she really liked me.

[00:24:22] So we would just drink tea and talk and she actually taught English. So we'd been speaking. She would make me speak in English, which I said, okay, so I understand [00:24:30] what you're doing. You're not really punishing me per se, but it was a really interesting way of. You know, teaching me to behave, I guess. So I stayed there.

[00:24:39] My father went was then he was a Turkish diplomat. So he. Who was sent to all Jerry and then to Iran later. So because of that, I just didn't we didn't go with them. So I stayed back in Turkey and finished high school. And then after that, I came to the states for college.

[00:24:54] Wendy: Oh, okay. So that's why he went on to the other places, but Algeria and Iran, [00:25:00] but you didn't

[00:25:01] Hakan: right.

[00:25:01] Primarily from the education, just, you know, because I was in a really good school in Turkey as well. My parents made the decision that I should just stay back. And my mother is, my mother stayed as well, and my dad was alone at the time. So I have an older sister. She had gone to France as well. She's a doctor.

[00:25:15] So it was an interesting time for.

[00:25:18] Wendy: Yeah. So you you've lived all over the place. What do you think is the heart, what was the hardest move that you had? Like what do you remember struggling the most with, [00:25:30] with language culture, making friends, you know?

[00:25:33] Hakan: Well, ironically I think my, even though I was the oldest coming to the state.

[00:25:39] At the age of 16, I think, you know, that probably even though it was college and it was so much fun and everything else, I think I had a bit of a culture shock from the standpoint of, and I felt, especially in Turkey, there's a very kind of, I would say like a very collective mindset of, you know, everybody taking [00:26:00] care of each other and being kind of, kind of, for lack of a better word on top of each other at times.

[00:26:04] But you know, You know, the dorm life, my first semester to be kind of a lonely world. And I just had a hard time adjusting. I mean, it wasn't a language barrier. Obviously I spoke English quite well. It wasn't that but I think I've became much more extroverted actually later in my life, I was a bit introverted at that time.

[00:26:28] So in my parents, my [00:26:30] father, and of course a very smart man, I had a. Gained acceptance to very good university and in Turkey actually, because we have a very. Extensive exam to get into college. I had gotten into it, but then I made the decision to come to the states, but we basically he basically froze my, my interest for a year.

[00:26:49] So you can do that in just in case that I decided that, you know, the option in the U S wasn't something that was suitable for me. So I remember having a great conversation back home [00:27:00] over the winter break. And he said, look, you know, if this is not for you, You can come back and do this. And I said, no, I wanted to do this.

[00:27:07] And you know, even though I had a hard time, the first semester I went back and then the rest, it was just an incredibly good experience. And I always say that's probably one of the first times I learned that any experience that you have in life, It's what you make out of it. Right? So whether, you know, I'm working, I went to school, I got a job later, or did my executive MBA much [00:27:30] later in life.

[00:27:30] It's about what you learned from that experience, what you can get out. And sometimes they're not always the best experiences, right. They can be really hard. But I think it really helped with my resilience and grit. Yeah, well, it did because I was just having this, you know, shock shock of just, you know, what's going on as a 16 year old.

[00:27:49] And, you know, you have that kind of like almost like nihilism, right? Of not knowing what the world is all about. But I was, I was able to kind of center myself and make really good friends. And the American [00:28:00] university is just an excellent school as well. And this is so global, too, very international. And so I made a lot of good friends and I still speak to quite a few of them.

[00:28:07] As well. So anyway I digress, but you know, it was definitely an interesting experience. And even though it was later in life, I found that to be more difficult than the other moves.

[00:28:17] Wendy: So tell me more about the culture. So you land in a dorm, which to me is very communal living and lots of people around yet.

[00:28:25] You found it very lonely because it was a different kind of. [00:28:30] Communal than what you were used to in Turkey. So T you know, explain the difference there.

[00:28:36] Hakan: I think it was just the mindset. And again, I think it was more on me. It wasn't on the other, on the other folks again, because I was more introverted. I don't think I was making enough.

[00:28:47] To go out and, and speak with them as well. Whereas like, for example, in Turkey, I mean, I exaggerate here, but if you sneeze, you know, people are like, you know, going to be on top of each other. Whereas there, I just felt, you know, nobody really cares. [00:29:00] Everybody just can't cares about themselves, but of course I was generalizing big time and I made very good friends and I had a roommate and everything else in college.

[00:29:08] And it was, as I said, it was more on me and like kind of seeing what I needed to tweak myself. And that's what I came to the realization over the winter break. And when I went back, things just started changing exponentially. Oh,

[00:29:22] Wendy: okay. All right. So I guess it does make sense and you're taking a lot on you.

[00:29:28] But there is also a very big [00:29:30] cultural thing there that you brought out that in Turkey, if you sneezed everybody's all over, you probably saying, bless you or gazuntite or whatever they say, what would they say

[00:29:39] in

[00:29:39] Hakan: Turkish?

[00:29:42] Wendy: Live long. Okay. But you sneeze here in the U S so yeah. Something nobody. Yeah.

[00:29:52] Hakan: Right. And I use the word sneeze. It's like, if you have a cold, you know, they're going to come in and give you a unit T and they're going to take care of you. And I don't know, maybe it's because [00:30:00] I was used to, you know, having my mother around and others around. So it probably wasn't just the same. Right.

[00:30:05] Because I didn't have anyone to turn to. As, as an adult, you know, it was, they would there over the phone. Remember it was a different world, right. We didn't have smartphones, we didn't have zoom and FaceTime and everything else. And now the world is so much more connected. I mean, my mother, I'm sure she'll listen to this later, but you know, she hits me up on WhatsApp probably five times a day.

[00:30:25] I mean, things have changed a lot since [00:30:30] then. And a lot of it.

[00:30:31] Wendy: Right, right, right. But it also, it, it talks to, you know, the communal culture of some countries in the independent take care of yourself, American cowboy coming in. So in a lot of the other, I mean, if you're in Turkey, Well, I don't know, you'd be in Egypt.

[00:30:52] You'd certainly have the communal, but you lived in other places where they might be more independent, but not as you're, [00:31:00] you're talking opposite ends of the,

[00:31:02] Hakan: and now I feel like I'm right in the middle and it's funny. Cause you know, it's one of those things where if I go back home as well, I mean, home of course is here in the states now.

[00:31:11] But if I go back to, you know, see my parents or others even. There's not a culture shock per se, but it's like, it's so different now because you've gotten used to the American lifestyle and other things as well. And it's just, you know, it's a bizarre feeling of, you know, of course this is home. This is where my family is.

[00:31:28] I have my girls, my, my, my [00:31:30] wife is here. Everything else, good friends are here. But when you get home, you don't like in Turkey, you don't feel a hundred percent there. And here, of course, I feel very good about it, but there's still an element in you that goes it's, there's still something that's just not quite right.

[00:31:46] It's hard to explain, I guess, but no,

[00:31:48] Wendy: no. I've heard that with other people that are that have lived internationally and now, you know, I did as a child. And so you where you're living is home, but you're also, you carry that [00:32:00] early childhood education and culture with you. So what is. What is the most different feeling when you go back to Turkey, like what's some of the, what might culture shock an American going over there?

[00:32:11] Hakan: I mean, it's probably just the mindset, but I think. You know, Turks and again, look, I I'm generalizing here,

[00:32:23] but I'm not, I think we're, you know, in general, a bit more impulsive, just more, you know, reactive and here, you know, we [00:32:30] always want to plan everything right in the U S and things may not be as, you know, orderly if you go back. But if you like that kind of. Good chaos. If for example, this stumble is good chaos, and you're going to have a fantastic time, you know, and as an American or whatever you're from.

[00:32:46] So, but it's just that kind of, that mindset of, and especially here, as you know, in, you know, like here in the Washington DC area, you know, things are generally speaking, quite ordered, orderly, you know, things where, you know, trains are going to leave and the right time, you know, the bus, [00:33:00] I mean, I'm sure.

[00:33:01] Grossly exaggerating. But that to me is probably the biggest kind of change that, you know, but if you're, you know, multicultural and you've traveled well, and you know how to find like the, the gems you need city and town, then you'd have. That's

[00:33:18] Wendy: what I think is so interesting about you talking about your culture shock.

[00:33:22] It was, what did I need to change? And there's this recurring theme of people say they're not pointing their [00:33:30] finger at different cultures to say they're different. They're saying as an individual, how, how would you describe it? What do you have to be as an individual to be able to jump into different cultures?

[00:33:40] To.

[00:33:42] Hakan: Right. I think, I think we spoke about this before as ball, for example, when I was trying to approach I was trying to, for business, I'm trying to approach, you know, people in Japan and, you know I read it, I remembered that I was having some challenges and I remember that my RA from college, which again, was a long time ago, that business quite a bit with [00:34:00] Japan introduced me to the Japanese business Federation here in Washington.

[00:34:03] I met them. That opened doors to meetings in Tokyo when we're there. And you know, again, I overcame some of those barriers by, it's not just about knowing people. It's about knowing how to actually work that to your advantage as well. Right. It's not just about having a network it's about how do you then help open and navigate those doors, especially if there's a cultural barrier.

[00:34:27] Wendy: Yeah. Before we started [00:34:30] recording the podcast is that you were having a hard time opening the door there and you had been successful in other countries. Correct. So you had to it, and so it really was relationship it wasn't. Yeah,

[00:34:43] Hakan: for sure. And as you know, Wendy, a lot of Asian cultures, I think in this, you know, again, I don't want to generalize, but a lot of it is about face and trust.

[00:34:52] No. So once he established that, I think then you have a better chance. And I think that was, you know, a lot of my success at CCTV. For example, I was able to establish [00:35:00] that again, in the Japanese case, by going step by step, I was able to get that, you know, faith and that trust established, which opened doors that then as well.

[00:35:10] And I think that's really important. So it's about knowing, you know, in business culture, knowing who your audience is and how you conduct yourself. And those times, right?

[00:35:19] Wendy: Yeah. So how about mistakes? You've worked across different organizations. You've seen lots of different things. What mistakes have [00:35:30] you made that you kind of grimace when you think back to them

[00:35:34] Hakan: or, I mean, look.

[00:35:37] Especially. I mean, I'll just use, you know, China, you know, CCTV and the experiences there. I mean, there are a lot of successes, but, you know, I think, you know, from a mistake standpoint, sometimes I think it was just what I said before. It's like looking at the other side and saying, okay, they're the ones who are the problem, or they're the ones who are not getting it.

[00:35:57] Maybe I just wasn't getting. [00:36:00] Well enough as well at that juncture, maybe I wasn't using, but look when the army who we are at 25, 35, 45, et cetera. Right. It's, it's an evolving process, right? It's adaptive, like leadership self as adaptive as well. So, you know, what I'm saying is, you know, had I known then that, oh, I can go and speak to this person who can then help me translate what this other person was saying.

[00:36:24] Not just from a language barrier perspective, but understanding and business. I think that would have been very helpful. I did do [00:36:30] it quite a bit, but I think there were other opportunities where I could just pull in some of my friends and say, what exactly is this person trying to say and do? And how can we kind of find the middle ground as well?

[00:36:41] And I think I had a lot of successes, but sometimes, you know, it's just, you try and it just doesn't happen for a variety of reasons.

[00:36:47] Wendy: Can you think of a specific example of one of those,

[00:36:50] Hakan: Well, I don't, again, I don't know if it was a mistake per se. I think it was a misunderstanding. There was something that, you know, very good.

[00:36:58] One of the people who worked with me, [00:37:00] we brought in a new technology and recommended to somebody who was pretty high up in the technology department. And it was called the system was called the switch, but he kept on thinking it's called the switcher. So it was a definitely communication barrier.

[00:37:15] But so it took, it was just, it was pretty comical to be in that room that I think about that and getting to that point. So I wouldn't describe it as a mistake per se, but I would describe it a problem, more of a misunderstanding and were able to resolve it, you know, after a lengthy conversation [00:37:30] and what we were trying to do.

[00:37:31] And then there was a understanding that we're trying to do this. Reduce costs actually. So, and then we did win.

[00:37:39] Wendy: Okay. Okay. And what was the difference between calling it the switch and the switcher?

[00:37:44] Hakan: Well, it just didn't make any sense because the switch is like in the, in the media world, it was just something that is being used for us to be able to, again, reduce the cost and bring in the feeds in a more effective manner and switch.

[00:37:55] And the word switcher just didn't make any sense.

[00:37:57] But again, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. It was just like [00:38:00] one example, one example of a misunderstanding. But again, what's important I think is that we were able to resolve it.

[00:38:05] Wendy: Okay. And so that's coming through loud and clear is, is that there can be communications you know, language or culture issues, but you just have to stay in there and talk and build that team around you to help facilitate if there is a difference in understanding.

[00:38:22] Correct.

[00:38:22] Hakan: And look, you're not going to win every time, right? Because that person, you know, either they're not going to always agree with you or they're going to [00:38:30] take it to their own superiors and then it's still going to be shot down. So, but what's important I think is to be resilient and try, and to your point, having that kind of open communication pipelines and throughout my career, that's what, something that I've worked on before.

[00:38:45] You know, again, bringing different workflows, different ideas and how can we bring it together and how can we bring that, that kind of common denominator and how can we focus on that part?

[00:38:55] Wendy: All right. So here's something interesting. Cause you're talking [00:39:00] about winning in a conversation. Is this a cultural thing?

[00:39:04] Is this a sports orientation?

[00:39:07] Hakan: That, that it's, I don't know. It might even be, I'm not, not going to call the MBA talk. I think it's just from having an entrepreneurial mindset as well. You know, it's like. You're right, because if you're one team you're not necessarily winning there, right. You're just making sure that that person has now understood your position and actually is coming closer to your position.

[00:39:26] But you know, it's one of my favorite things is being able to kind of just [00:39:30] negotiate in a strategic fashion. You know, then that's when I think winning is just in that context, it's winning your, your own argue. Right. And whether that's internal to a team or whether you have a proposal out externally and you're talking to, you know, bring business in, you know, hopefully that that's when you're winning, that's what I'm talking about.

[00:39:50] You know, I don't know if it's a sports analogy per se in this case.

[00:39:54] Wendy: Okay. So it might be MBA talks. So I hear, I hear what you're typing. You know, I have an MBA, so I can hear what you're talking [00:40:00] about is, is if you're going. If you have a solution and somebody else has a solution and you both present, you want yours to win.

[00:40:08] Cause you're probably be more vested in it, more research in it. Correct? Yeah. It and understanding if you don't win. See if I set myself up to think win loss, I'd be very upset every time I lost. So I'd really have to work on the resiliency. And so that's what you're doing, but with the understanding of [00:40:30] pulling in the team and communicating

[00:40:33] Hakan: 100%, I think that's one of the things that it's interesting, cause it's a little different than what we were just talking about.

[00:40:39] But you know, later on in life I realized like one of the biggest skill sets from DAP, for example, you know, spending 10 years there, it wasn't just about in a to day-to-day operations, you know, broadcast, journalism, everything else. It was about storytelling. Yeah, you can, if you can tell a story effectively.

[00:40:55] So again, you know, your, your, your negotiations, if you can do a storytelling, if you [00:41:00] can tell your brand that elevator pitch in 30 seconds, right. If you do that well, you know, I think you have a better chance. And then if you combine that with emotional intelligence, which some people have, of course, as you know, and some people don't, then I think you have a really good chance of being able to succeed more.

[00:41:19] Wendy: How does storytelling now, you know, so I keep taking this there's these really good pieces of advice, and then trying to take it across a culture [00:41:30] because you've had this experience being able to do that. So in the AP you're taught how to tell a story, right? But there can be a different way to tell a story across a business, let alone across a culture.

[00:41:44] So how would you adapt?

[00:41:47] Hakan: But again, I think it's whether you're in the AP or whether it's in the corporate world. And I think some of this is also cross-cultural sorry. Crisis communications, right? It's being able to be very. Not only [00:42:00] reactive, but also proactive and knowing if there's something major that's happening.

[00:42:04] I think the ones, the companies that you know, are usually a bit more successful are the ones who react in a very quick manner, in a very concise manner. And they tell their story really well. Even if they've messed up that here are the things that we're working on immediate. And that there's that transparency and openness and the ones who kind of hide behind and don't do it in a quick manner, I think are the ones that eventually who pay the higher cost.

[00:42:29] And [00:42:30] that's what I mean, storytelling and, you know, branding from a perspective of not only always growth in a company that's important, but also when there is a crisis, how do you tell your story? Well,

[00:42:43] Wendy: and in that philosophy is how do you tell your story? Communicating quickly and honestly, and doing it.

[00:42:51] Now, if you think about that in the United States, that's proven, you know, proven theory. That's how businesses who succeed do it. There's also, [00:43:00] if you take, you know, going back to Japan, you've got to think about saving face and how you articulate that. So how would that story different if there's a crisis communication?

[00:43:14] Hakan: Opportunity in Japan. I think it's a, it's a great question when they would, I, I still think there are certain things that I do think it's you are seeing some changes, for example, when The cause we covered sports quite a bit with the Tokyo Olympics. You know, [00:43:30] there were some individuals who made some, you know, and this was a high ranking officer in the Olympic committee who made, you know, really some unfortunate comments and he was replaced very quickly by, by a female.

[00:43:43] And knowing how in Japan, of course, as you know, it's, you know, I don't wanna use the word male dominated, but it's been, you know, traditionally more that way. That was a very quick way to react. And I don't know in the past, maybe they would have, or wouldn't have reacted that quickly. So they did, I, I do think there are [00:44:00] certain things that are common, both here in the U S in the west, and also now in other countries as well in know, South Korea has that a lot of issues with, you know, even in corporate governance and some of their big major corporations.

[00:44:11] But I think you're seeing more and more of them being able to react in a quicker fashion, which eventually helps with their. As well, Samsung had major issues right. With their phones for a while. But then my goodness, look at the way that they're now dominating so much for parts of the world in sales. [00:44:30] If they hadn't reacted in a quick, fast manner and told their story, well, I don't know if they could have done that, right.

[00:44:35] It's not, it's not just about, you know, everybody wanting to go buy a smartphone. It's it's more than that. Right. Especially now, when there's so many options in the world, right. Still were able to tell their story.

[00:44:46] Wendy: So it's fascinating to me that, you know, you lived in all these countries, you speak all these different languages and you're still seeing so many similarities that go across cross cultures and [00:45:00] communications and leadership.

[00:45:02] Hakan: Right. Yeah, I think so. I think in leadership too, I mean, of course I think it's so broad in general, right? I mean, there's so different ways that you can look at leadership, but again, I, I think the key word there Wendy's. You know, it's when a leader has that kind of empathy, whether it's a media, nonprofit technology, wherever, and they can really instill that in their team and an understanding of it.

[00:45:27] I think that's the key word, and I'm seeing more [00:45:30] and more of that. And I actually liked that quick. In the world and especially what came out with the business round table. And now almost like, I think two years ago that it's not just about profits, right. We need to also worry about other things in life as well.

[00:45:43] And talk about, you know, stakeholders, shareholders, all of that too. So I think we're seeing it change. And I think one of the lessons learned of the coronavirus. Pandemic as well. Yes, my goodness. It's the world has gone through a very hard time, but that's why, again, the theme of unity through sports was [00:46:00] important.

[00:46:00] Can we do that kind of thing through leadership? You know, having that kind of empathetic leadership that brings society together. I think we need it more than ever.

[00:46:11] Wendy: It's really interesting because I've taken some leadership courses recently and they're called leadership, but they were all about emotional intelligence, which is teaching empathy.

[00:46:21] Right. And how do you take care of your people?

[00:46:24] Hakan: Right? It's you have to have a high IQ. I think, you know, I always say as a leader, you can have great will [00:46:30] great skill, but if you don't have that. That high IQ, then it, you know, again, it's very difficult in this day and age to, you know, manage teams effectively.

[00:46:41] Wendy: Yeah. And that goes across the world.

[00:46:45] Hakan: I think. So. I don't think, I don't think it really matters where you are. I think that's important. And also we have to understand that. I do think, you know, the younger generation now. Wants to be part of things, right. They want to be able to touch and [00:47:00] feel things they want to be able to.

[00:47:01] And I I'm seeing that more and more, especially in my current job and my previous roles as well, where they really want to be involved as well. And I think, you know, I'll give credit to my, to my wife as well. And I think she said this to me, you know, before everybody wants to also feel important, right.

[00:47:21] That they're contributing towards a common goal. Whether you're at the highest level C suite or whether you're in the entry-level [00:47:30] role. It doesn't really matter. It's about value, right? No personal, but also towards the company's goals as well.

[00:47:38] Wendy: Yeah. And that's, that probably has been a standing. Important element of leadership and running a business forever, but we probably broke away from that when people didn't have the long-term relationship with their company, you know, you used to go and work for a company and then retire from.

[00:47:59] You had that [00:48:00] long-term goal and those relationships. Then when we went through the time period where people could job, you know, pop and they're moved around and you know, there wasn't the loyalty from the company to the employee or vice versa.

[00:48:13] Hakan: There's so much mobility. So it's, it's, it's hard to have that kind of loyalty, maybe add to your point that that's a very good point.

[00:48:19] Right?

[00:48:19] Wendy: And so now people still want that. But to keep the mobility in there too.

[00:48:27] Hakan: Yeah. It's, it's true. And I, I do think, you know, [00:48:30] it's funny sometimes I feel like, you know, I sound like my parents or something like that, but you know, it's this even with my daughters, you know, everything's accessible. Yes.

[00:48:39] You know, it's, I mean, remember when, you know, we used to have modems and everything else. And can you imagine the connectivity now, especially with, during the pandemic, like we're all relying on zoom and other measures. I mean, you know, the smartphones, everything else is like now, now, now, so that, you know, it, it does affect people in the way [00:49:00] they think.

[00:49:00] Right. And then, so when you're, you know, younger and maybe read college grad again, you know, people might get. Board more easily, but I do think there's some also lessons learned from being able to stick to something and being resilient as well. I see both sides of the coin quite well, I think. Yeah.

[00:49:19] Wendy: And it's, it's interesting with the younger crowd coming up or the young worker, young adult workers.

[00:49:26] And that goes across the globe because they've all [00:49:30] had this influx of technology through their life of getting everything now. So that makes things very current.

[00:49:36] Hakan: It does it doesn't, it's funny. Cause when you say, when you say technology, you know, you can look at it both ways, right? It's just such a good thing.

[00:49:43] But then other areas that just needs, you know, I don't want to use the word regulation per se, but there's just so much bad that's come out of it as well. So I think it's just. It's an again, an interesting area, especially this Silicon valley, you know, these, these Silicon valley, the European union and everything [00:50:00] else trying to regulate some of the big tech companies as well.

[00:50:03] It's a very interesting

[00:50:04] Wendy: space. Oh yes. Yes. I've sat back and watched and I can see the parallels with the industrial revolution of all the bad things that happen. There, regulations that had to come out and, you know, Control those, and now the tech revolution and going through the same thing, but we're getting to the end of the time.

[00:50:21] And I want to get you back to talking about you and you know, you know, I'm going to ask this question. What's your favorite [00:50:30] foreign word?

[00:50:31] Hakan: Foreign word. Hmm, really interesting. That's a good one. Hmm. Hmm. I mean, I think you know, the word. No it's which in obviously, I mean, we have it in Turkish and I think now in the ma in English to kiss Mets, right?

[00:50:49] Fate, I think that that one to me is a, is a key word because sometimes again, you can do everything right. In business, your personal life, whatever, but [00:51:00] then you'd need that a little bit of kismet on your site as well. I

[00:51:03] Wendy: love that. That's so true. It's more than luck.

[00:51:08] Hakan: Right. For sure. For sure. It's about not, you know, fat, right?

[00:51:12] Not, you know, if it H fates if E yes,

[00:51:16] Wendy: yes, yes, exactly. All right. And how about your favorite vacation?

[00:51:23] Hakan: Honestly, like, I've been to many places in the world. There's something about the Turkish Mediterranean [00:51:30] and kind of like the Aegean coast that I just, you know, it's just amazing. And we have this beautiful boats called Juliet and just being able to spend some time on them and just kind of, you know, looking at the horizon and just underwater.

[00:51:44] I think there's nothing that I can, nothing in the world that I can replace that with. It's just,

[00:51:49] Wendy: that's fantastic. It is. Yeah, I've been to the the Greek side of the Mediterranean, not the Turkish.

[00:51:59] Hakan: Not very [00:52:00] different for sure. It's, it's equally. And I have a lot of, I have a lot of Greek friends of course, and we do a lot of, you know, bickering just amongst ourselves.

[00:52:09] But, you know, it's such a similar cultures and two beautiful countries that say, yeah,

[00:52:14] Wendy: yeah. And we through the flu, through the Istanbul airport and I'm like, ah, I want to get back to this country. I've heard such wonderful things about it next time, next time. All right. And how about a memorable cross-cultural [00:52:30] experience you've had.

[00:52:31] Hakan: Memorable cross-cultural example experience. Wow. I think I'm, I have to go back to China in this case, we were visiting with the senior leadership at the time at CCTV as well. And. Culturally there, you know, not only are you having, you know, a very good dinner, like amazing food, mean for those who haven't been to China, it's just, I mean, the, the cuisine there is just incredible.

[00:52:58] But it's about, [00:53:00] you know, also in that case was about having, you know, a certain amount of adult beverages as well and you know, lots of drinks for going across. And I think. At that case done quite well, apparently. So one of the senior leaders, you know, told others was like that one. Yeah. He's like a Sikh and hang out with us and to get the, for the record, you know, I'm not like a big drinker or anything like that.

[00:53:24] I started look, you're part of this, you know, you have to be, let, go and have fun. And it sure was a great [00:53:30] experience. And I think, again, back to the point of face and trust, you know, whether you do it through over food and I think food is one of those. Kind of again, right. Denominators that bring us together culturally as well.

[00:53:42] I think that that was a great experience.

[00:53:45] Wendy: Oh, that's great. That just must warm your head, your, your heart, when you think back to to that dinner and feeling. Yeah. He's, he's good.

[00:53:54] Hakan: I love that.

[00:53:55] Wendy: Yeah. And I'm surprised at the number of stories that have come up about, around [00:54:00] drinking on the podcast and, you know yeah.

[00:54:03] Cause here you might, somebody might come and visit American business and they just see them during the day and they might not even go out at night and they're certainly not expected to drink, but in a lot of countries that is expected and I think that's really good to. You remind yourself or the global business, I guess it is at a delightful time.

[00:54:22] Any final recommendations for people who are going to do global business?

[00:54:28] Hakan: I think one of the words that I [00:54:30] really focus on quite a bit is the word strategy. I think it's a. It really critical word and coincidentally or not. Two of the areas where during my MBA that I did really well was strategy and advanced strategy.

[00:54:44] I just really enjoy it. And I think whatever you do, you know, in, in the business world, I think having that strategic mindset, sometimes it's easier said than done, right? But that to me is it might be one of my key words in business is just, you know, laying out a [00:55:00] strategy, laying out a plan. Making sure that, you know, even if you do a proposal, the pitch, whatever you want to do that, you know what the value prop is.

[00:55:08] It's I always try to look at if I'm the person who was receiving the. What are they thinking about? What is the value of that and how do we make sure that this is a win-win right. So it's not for, only for the business that I'm working for, but also how does it look like that also is a win for them as well?

[00:55:28] So strategy too, for [00:55:30] me, I don't think you can conduct any business. Domestically or globally without having really good strategy. That to me is key.

[00:55:38] Wendy: That is a really good point. And that was well said nobody else has really come back and said that, but, you know, whenever I talk about starting your global.

[00:55:48] Venture or your global marketing is, is always start with strategy. And so I liked that in particularly the win-win where you're looking at it from their perspective. Right? Yeah. Thank you. Good [00:56:00] words of advice now, how can people find you or learn more about the Washington Institute, if they're

[00:56:06] interested?

[00:56:07] Hakan: Sure thing. So Washington's dot org is our website. We actually are, you know, as a 5 0 1 C3 we have of course a giving Tuesday coming up. So we'll be participating in that quite a bit as well. So there'll be more on the website on our social media. We're on Twitter, on LinkedIn. They can also find me personally, I'm on LinkedIn quite a bit as well.

[00:56:27] And, you know, Yeah, pretty good network there [00:56:30] too, so they can find me on LinkedIn. And anyone else who wants to get in touch, you know, it's, at gmail.com is my email as well. I don't mind giving that out as

[00:56:39] Wendy: well. Okay. And so do you want to spell your name slowly so people can find you online?

[00:56:44] Hakan: Sure.

[00:56:45] It's H a K a N. Last name is O Z as in zebra, S a N C H.

[00:56:55] Wendy: How con son Chuck. Okay. And so find him on LinkedIn or his [00:57:00] full name. At gmail.com in Washington institute.org.org. Wash w a S H I N S t.org. That's correct. Dot org. Okay. So that definitely looks like something to, to follow. Well, thank you so much for being on today.

[00:57:23] This has been a delightful conversation. So thank you for being

[00:57:27] Hakan: here. Thank you so much for having me here, Wendy. [00:57:30] It was lovely to talk to you. Thanks for.

[00:57:32] Wendy: So, and listeners, thank you for listening. I hope you learned something today. Remember silos are for farmers, so break down those silos across those borders and in develop a strategy for your goal global business.

[00:57:47] And go ahead and follow the podcast and give us a five-star rating or share it with somebody, you know we're all over the globe now. So people are finding us and listening to us. We'll see you. Or talk [00:58:00] to next time. Thanks so much for listening.

[00:58:02] [00:58:30]

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