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#136 | Biotech’s Global Reach

Akeem Gardner is the CEO of Canadian biotech startup Canurta, a Canadian-based biotech company that specializes in extracting and enriching rare molecules found in nature and developing them into botanical therapeutics to help patients who are suffering from major neurodegenerative and inflammatory diseases. 

More specifically, botanical drugs rely on a variety of technologies to gather and upcycle plant waste, and Canurta has created processes for creating purified standards and molecules that can eventually go to market: 

“But what many people don't know is that the FDA actually gives you a botanical drug development guidance of how you could handcraft or properly formulate molecules from plants to get specific ingredients that target specific mechanisms that can help patients with the neuroprotection that they need to extend their lifespan but also live more healthy lives across a longer lifespan.” 

Akeem and Wendy connected at the Redefining Early Stage of Investment (RESI) Conference in Boston, hosted by Life Science Nation. (Wendy recently interviewed Dennis Ford, founder and CEO of Life Science Nation, which specializes in fundraising for life sciences companies.)  

In this episode, Akeem describes how his company leverages global connections and diverse perspectives to drive growth and innovation. This is especially true for its most advanced program, which is dedicated to treating ALS, or Lou Gehrig's disease. 

Building International Partnerships 

Akeem has made it a priority to cultivate international partnerships, recognizing the need for a global patient pool. To facilitate these global connections, he tapped into resources available to Canadian companies: federal and provincial governments subsidize attendance at industry events and make introductions to key organizations. "They create spaces for Canadian companies so that I just have to get on a flight, get to where the opportunity is, or the event is, and then they help us with matchmaking and making introductions to the organizations that we need to meet," he explains. 

His diverse background also contributes to his global mindset. Having studied law in the UK before founding Canurta, he is comfortable navigating different cultures and languages. He is “always so excited about how people are living in different places in the world," he adds. 

Leveraging Language and Culture 

Akeem encourages his team to embrace existing technologies to mitigate the barriers that language and culture sometimes create. He lauds the practical uses of generative AI and Google Translate, but only for translating signs or navigating public transportation in foreign countries. Clinical trials, regulatory documents, and sensitive information require professional translation; however, Akeem relies on his experienced team for translation management so that he can focus on building relationships with key opinion leaders and patients. 

Along the way, he has learned that fostering that focus in other areas of the company is also important. For example, managing cash flow rather than chasing every opportunity presents itself is key to long-term success, especially during difficult economic times when capital is scarce. 

Another lesson he has learned is to trust his own instincts and his team’s capabilities rather than relying solely on advice from outside experts.

"Everyone has an opinion, but they're not always experts in the day-to-day of what you're doing," he said. Staying grounded in the realities will help you navigate the complexities of biotech development with confidence. 

The Power of Diverse Perspectives 

His background as a non-traditional biotech founder has also taught him the value of embracing diverse perspectives. With a background in law and agriculture, he initially grappled with imposter syndrome, feeling that he lacked the scientific credentials of his peers. 

Since, however, he has come to see his unique perspective as a strength: "I used to have a lot of imposter syndrome because I'm not a scientist by nature. Or by formal training, I'm a learning scientist now because I'm doing it on the day-to-day," he says. This “outsider” viewpoint also means he can ask fresh questions and challenge assumptions, ultimately driving innovation within his company. 

In fact, companies with diverse teams have been shown to increase a company’s revenue, drive growth, and heighten retention. Novel problem-solving and varied perspectives contribute to open lines of communication and a healthy working environment. 

Looking Ahead: Expanding Globally, Staying Focused 

Canurta is recruiting patients for its registration trials in Australia, Europe, Canada, and the US. By embracing internationalization, biotech companies are leaders in bringing life-changing and life-saving products to the world as it truly looks today: a world with vastly differing backgrounds and expectations yet united in the quest for better, more healthful living. 

In an increasingly interconnected world, biotechnology startups that are committed to making a lasting impact will need to be able to navigate language and cultural barriers, build strategic partnerships, and challenge industry conventions.

Canurta is leading the way alongside the rest of the Canadian biotech community, and their journey is inspiring.
 

Read the Episode Transcript.

ATTENTION:  Below is a machine-generated transcription of the podcast. Yes, here at Rapport International we talk a lot about how machine translation lacks quality. Here you see an example of what a machine can do in your own language. This transcription is provided as a gist and to give time indicators to find a topic of interest. 

Wendy: Hello listeners, hello friends of The Global Marketing Show. We are still here live at the RESI Conference in Boston, recording, and I'm very excited for the next guest. These have just been fascinating conversations and I'm so glad to be here. 

 Before we get into that, I want to remind you that the podcast is brought to you by Rapport International and this episode's tidbit is about number of people that speak a foreign language at home in the United States. Do you realize that it's 21 percent of the US population speaks a foreign language at home? 

So, no longer people coming into the United States and saying, I'm just going to learn English and I'm going to push the other language away. We're keeping our language, which I think is so rich, because there are so many words that we don't have in English that have better expressions in other languages. 

But on to our guest now. Akeem Gardner is from Canurta. He's the Chief Executive Officer. So thank you so [00:01:00] much for being here with us today.  

Akeem: Oh, thank you for having me, Wendy. I'm super excited that we bumped into each other and we get the opportunity to have this conversation.  

Wendy: Yes, I am too. So tell me about what you're doing at Canurta these days. 

Akeem: So at Canurta, we're a Canadian based biotechnology company. And we specialize in getting rare molecules found in nature, extracting and enriching for them, and then developing them out into botanical therapeutics. More specifically, botanical drugs. So we have a variety of technologies that allow us to do this from plant matter, upcycling plant waste, and we also have the ability to enzymatically create, purified standards and purified molecules that eventually can go to market. 

And the exciting thing about what we're doing is that these rare molecules found in nature have a super high potential to be able to treat inflammatory related diseases and neurodegenerative diseases as well.  

Wendy: Okay so tell me more [00:02:00] about that with what diseases in particular are you looking at and how's it working? 

Akeem: So our most advanced program is our program for ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease. And, why we're excited about it is because we know that the molecules found in nature, specifically plants, have been able to, for, plenty of years, thousands of years, help with symptomatic relief when it comes to major neurodegenerative diseases like ALS, Alzheimer's, dementia, so on and so forth. 

But what many people don't know is that the FDA actually gives you a botanical drug development guidance of how you could handcraft or properly formulate. from plants to be able to get specific ingredients that target specific mechanisms that can help patients with the neuroprotection that they need to extend their lifespan but also live more healthy lives across a longer lifespan. 

Wendy: Okay, and what stage of development are you now?  

Akeem: We are getting ready for our first in human clinical [00:03:00] trials which we will be able to launch later this year, early next year with collaborators at Washington State University.  

Wendy: Okay, so right there you're global because you're a Canadian company and you're doing your clinical trials in the United States. 

Akeem: Exactly. Yeah. And we also know that when, especially when it comes to rare diseases like ALS, you really need a global consortium to be able to recruit the amount of patients to be able to get your registration trial. So after our first in human, our follow-up trial will be our registration trial and we'll actually base that trial in Australia and bring on sites in Europe, in Canada, and in the US so we can get our recruitment numbers of the 250 to 300 ALS patients that we need to be able to show clinical significance in a randomized controlled clinical trial.  

Wendy: So, how do you go about doing that? You're based in Canada, you've made some connections in the United States, but now you need to connect with all those countries to get enough people. 

 How do you even form those relationships and start doing that?  

Akeem: [00:04:00] Well, a number of different things that we do, but the first and foremost thing that I'll say is that we're very lucky to be in Canada building biotechnology, not only our federal government, but our provincial government provides a lot of different opportunities at all the RESIs, all the Bio Internationals. They create spaces for Canadian companies, so that I just have to get on a flight, get to where the opportunity is, or the event is, and then they help us with matchmaking and making introductions to the organizations that we need to meet. 

I also do a lot of conferences at the ALS conference, for example. And that conference is a rotating conference internationally every year. So we get the opportunity to meet the different key opinion leaders and patients whether they're in Europe, this year it'll be in Montreal, and then in the years to come, they always pick a different country, a different place. 

Wendy: Okay, so you're really leaning on the government for assistance as an early stage company to get into the key conferences like RESI, and then do you go to [00:05:00] RESI in Barcelona and London and the other ones, or?  

Akeem: We selectively pick, but I've been to a couple of RESIs. I really like the Boston ones because of the ecosystem in Massachusetts with all the biotech and pharma companies here. 

And we've done the Bio International in Germany as an example. JPM in San Francisco, right? Last year, I went to the ALS conference in Basel, Switzerland. There was Hevolution Global Healthspan Conference, that was in Saudi Arabia. And every time we go to one of these different places, we always get the ability to connect with Global Affairs Canada and the Trade Commissioner Canada, because it's their job to make our trip to wherever we're going a little bit more welcoming and comfortable for us. 

And then if there are strategic introductions that they can make in preparation of us going, they will always try to do that.  

Wendy: Yeah, that's fantastic. And I know so many countries, the US certainly does that. They have all sorts of resources to help the startup companies export or go to [00:06:00] conferences and make the connections. 

So now it seems like you've been to a lot of different conferences around the world. What are some of the language and culture challenges that you've had?  

Akeem: Well, growing up in Toronto, we have a lot of cultures around us. So I actually think it makes it easier for me to travel and ingratiate myself in new cultures and opportunities because I'm always so excited about how people are living in different places in the world. 

I also went to law school before founding our company in the United Kingdom, so I was able to bounce around a couple of European countries. So, I always said to myself, whatever job I want to do, I want it to be able to incorporate law, travel, and sports. Right now in biotech, we don't necessarily get the sports part of it, but I get the travel and the law part. 

That's what I use to be an entrepreneur myself. So, I have a lot of fun traveling, meeting new people, trying different foods. And with the recent updates with things like ChatGPT and Siri, [00:07:00] Google Translate, it makes the language barrier a little bit more less of a barrier to be able to manage depending on where we go. 

Wendy: Okay. So what are some of the practical uses for like Siri, chatGPT and Google, like the automated translation? I mean, we're sponsored by Rapport International that does all the high quality, but I'm certainly a fan of the automated translations where it's done in the right places. 

So what are your practical tips on that?  

Akeem: Well, I'll share them. Especially when I'm in the European country like France or Spain or even in Saudi Arabia, being able to have things like Google Translate and just take a picture to know what bus I'm going on. Am I going on the right thing? 

Just like really, really small things like that are just super helpful because you can't read the language and not everyone has everything in English. Fortunately, we know English is a global language, so usually when I get into the right rooms and we're talking to people, we can communicate and I'm used to translating between people's accents because of where I grew up back at home. 

So those are [00:08:00] some of the advantages to being in a multi public New York or in Toronto, because you have a lot of immigrants that expose you to a lot of different cultures. And then just when you go to different places, sometimes you just need a little bit of help to say. Is this bus going to take me the right way? 

Am I going to get to my airport? Or whatever the keys be.  

Wendy: Exactly. Now when you think about recruiting patients and bringing them into your studies, would you use Google Translate for that?  

Akeem: I'm lucky that I have a clinical operations team that has done this before on international levels, so I will ask them what the right way to do this at the right time, right? 

Wendy: Oh, okay.  

Akeem: Yeah, I won't be the one doing the translating. I'll be the ones to use the Google or whatever it is. to say hi and engage with the patients myself and just ask them how they're doing and then we'll let our team handle everything else.  

Wendy: Okay, well, you know that was a loaded question because I'm a huge fan where it's anything that's just casual but [00:09:00] anything that it can open up your legal liability, speaking to an attorney, that's when you really wanna have a professional involved to help out. So I hope your team knows that. But if they've done it before, I'm sure they have. Exactly. Have you hired a team or are you subcontracting or  

Akeem: Well, contracting a team. We have a group of advisors that work really close to us at the early stage where we are at. It's always beneficial to have people in fractional roles who can step in and provide guidance when we need their help. 

 We have a team of 11 full time, but these are our research associates, our production associates. Really right now we're focused on being able to scale up our technology to extract these rare molecules found in nature. Once we can produce them on a repeatable basis, which is where we're at right now, we can then take those therapeutics and get them into the clinic. 

But even getting them into the clinic, we work with CROs and the various [00:10:00] PIs to be able to execute on the trials because we know that everyone has the area of expertise. And this will be our first in human trial for our company.  

Wendy: Okay. Yeah, that's such a smart way to set it up. And then I'm curious, since you immediately have to go global for your trials, did you hire a CRO or those fractional people in Canada or in other countries, or how did you do that? 

Akeem: And we hired people that had bases in the countries that we knew we wanted to work in. But then who also had the experience to be able to extend this globally and work with other sites around the world.  

Wendy: Okay. And so you have multiple relationships or you have one relationship that has different, one  

Akeem: relationship that has the connections required to get the trial done. 

So our principal, CRO, they're based in Australia. Oh, interesting. But they have sites in Europe and they have collaborators in Europe and then in Canada, and then in the US. And then for us, because I'm conference [00:11:00] hopping and meeting all the different key opinion leaders at the sites that treat ALS patients as an example, then I can help bridge and create the relationship between the key opinion leaders, or the investigators, and the CROs, so that our database can be central, and then we have different people all around being able to contribute our flow into our central database and operating system. 

Wendy: That's fantastic. I mean, you had to because you're your target patient population international, but it seems like you've set up a very fluid, seamless operation that's working well for you.  

Akeem: We are trying, we're learning. Everything in life you learn by experience. You learn from making mistakes, but then rapidly growing from those and then fixing things up. 

It's been a long journey, but it's been fun.  

Wendy: Okay, so I have to dig into the mistakes because those are the best learning opportunities for our listeners. What are some of the mistakes that you made and what did you learn from them?  

Akeem: Well, I think every founder and entrepreneur, [00:12:00] the biggest thing that you have to learn, especially in biotechnology, is how to manage your cash properly and how to not chase shiny objects. 

It's a lot of times, even at conferences like RESI, you'll get a lot of inbound people saying, Hey, we can help you with this. We can help you with this. We can help you with this. So one of the lessons that I've had to learn is how to say no, how to stay focused on exactly what we need to do. Because especially in economic climates, like we were previously in and hopefully are getting out of, once you get capital, you have to cherish that capital. 

Because you don't know how long it's going to take for your next money or your next investor or your next opportunity to open up the floodgates and the doors. So this is a lesson that we've had to learn. Everyone's having to learn it and the companies that learn those lessons the quickest are the ones that are usually able to persevere and give themselves the time it takes to be able to be successful when it comes to drug development.  

Wendy: Okay. Yes, I think that goes across the board for any entrepreneur is how to stay focused. That's a really, really good lesson. [00:13:00] Any others?  

Akeem: The other lesson that I've learned, and actually this is one that I'm leaning on right now is everyone has an opinion, but they're not always experts in the day to day of what you're doing. 

So it's okay if you have an expert who's built this company or they've done this or whatever, and they give you an opinion. You can take it with a grain of salt. You don't have to take it for gospel because you know the work that you're doing every day. And learning to trust in my own instincts, in my own research, in my own day to day, versus the word of a gentleman who maybe he had a billion dollar exit or whatever it is, but you're not doing what I'm doing every day. 

You're not talking to the patients I'm talking to every day. And you're not at the recent conferences that I'm at to see what the current state of drug development is or the current state of how the regulators look at rare disease drug development, so on and so forth. So you take the opinions, but then you have to filter it through the work that you're doing on the day to day. 

Wendy: That is excellent advice. I belong to Entrepreneurs Organization, which is [00:14:00] a global organization of entrepreneurs. And when you join, you're trained on how to give experience shares. Like, when I was in a similar situation, this is what I did. Rather than telling other entrepreneurs because it's exactly as you said, each entrepreneur is living their own journey. 

Yeah.  

Akeem: And once you learn how to sort of shift that, again, I didn't come from a traditional biotechnology background. Again, I went to law school before becoming an entrepreneur. And when I became an entrepreneur, I started on the farm. Because there were agricultural opportunities in Canada. 

I was fortunate that researchers at the University of Guelph, they wanted my biomass to create the technology to get to these rare molecules. And then I was like, what are you guys creating? And when they educated me on the therapeutic potential, that's when we pivoted our company and we've been going since. 

So I used to have a lot of imposter syndrome because I'm not a scientist by nature. Or by formal [00:15:00] training, I'm a learning scientist now because I'm doing it on the day to day. So I used to take everyone's advice and every time someone would say something, we have to pivot, we have to pivot, we have to pivot. 

Most recently I've been learning that no, they're not doing the work, we're doing the work, we're on the right track. We can use their experience to guide us and to show the pitfalls that we should watch out for, but we have to trust in what we're actually doing on the day to day.  

Wendy: Good for you. That is so impressive. 

Wait, you got a law degree and then you went to work on the farm? Tell me more about that.  

Akeem: So I graduated in 2017 and when I graduated, I went to law school in the United Kingdom. When I returned back home to Canada, I started to understand the opportunities of what was going on every time I turned on the news. 

Because again, I just sat in my company law class, my business law class, my land law class, my public law class, etc. We had the Paris Accord 2015. We had Brexit in 2016. So all [00:16:00] these things that were going on, now I sort of start to understand what this actually means on a global scale. 

When I returned back home to Canada in 2017, the big thing that stood out to us is that our country was legalizing for the first time cannabis on a federal level. and Canada was becoming the first G7 country to legalize. I played sports my whole life, so I knew that there were a variety of athletes, whether that be in MMA, in football, or in whatever sport, that would use the plant for the medicinal purposes, and it sort of clicked for me that if our country was going to legalize first, it was going to give our universities the ability to do the real research on the plant, to understand all the molecular compounds in the plant, and their therapeutic potential. 

So, as I quickly started to ask around questions, network my way around and see what companies were, what was going on, I quickly realized that there was a difference between cannabis marijuana and industrial hemp. Industrial hemp being the [00:17:00] plant that has little to no THC, rich in CBD, but you can also get your hemp foods from it, your fibers from it, and even building materials from the stock instead. 

And different than cannabis marijuana for industrial hemp, you just have to be a farmer. So I took the line of credit I had to go to law school. I found some land north of the city I lived in and I started a 60 acre farm. And that was the best decision I could have done. Even though I got my ass kicked on the farm. 

Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.  

Wendy: You can.  

Akeem: But even though it was so much hard work, it allowed me to prove myself to the Ontario farmers who took me under their wing. They said, Akeem, you go figure out how to run the business. We'll do the agricultural part of this. And then it allowed me to give our biomass to a variety of different universities and colleges in Canada who wanted to, for the first time, study what the waste material, what the plant material, what the fiber can do. And that's what led us to our relationship with the University of Guelph, our technology that allowed us to build and turn into what we're doing [00:18:00] today. 

Wendy: Brilliant. Brilliant. What an incredible story.  

Akeem: Thank you.  

Right place, right time. Being just crazy enough to say, maybe I can be a farmer and just sticking through it has led us to where we are today.  

Wendy: Well, I mean it's The Global Marketing Show, but also the global view saying, well, we're one of the first countries that gives us first to market. And then looking at all the different opportunities worldwide and getting into the pharmacology. 

Akeem: Even in the States, we try to set up different relationships with the key opinion leaders in the states that have medicinal cannabis or industrial hemp programs. Because if we can prepare ourselves, right now the news is that they're going to reschedule from Schedule 1 to Schedule 3. 

Which will open up medical cannabis federally, but then eventually recreational will come, whether it be 2, 5, 10 years down the line. So, because we legalized as a country in 2018, it allowed us to get our head start. and get a [00:19:00] claim to fame on some of these rare ingredients. File our global patents so that we know that we'll have our defensibility and our claim to fame as we continue to grow. 

And then as the world continues to open up, we'll be there to expand state by state, country by country.  

Wendy: Country, wow, so it really was a global view from the start. Yeah, so what are you doing here at RESI?  

Akeem: So today I'm here, I have a couple of B2B meetings, pharma networking meetings, and a couple of investor relations. 

I also always appreciate the opportunity to come to Boston. I have a couple of advisors that are in the city that I'll get the chance to go meet, and then to see what some of the other startup companies are doing. I really, really enjoy when you get to walk the poster aisles, see what companies are working on, if there are people who can help us fit or accelerate anything that we're doing in our programs, but also to be able to have conversations because entrepreneurs help entrepreneurs. Yes. We all think very creatively about [00:20:00] solving different problems. So I always enjoy being in the room. And again, our Ontario government has brought us down. They have a booth. So I'm here to show what we're doing up in Canada.  

Wendy: Oh, that's fantastic. Okay, so we're kind of running out of time, but you know, this question's coming. 

What's your favorite foreign word?  

Akeem: So I think that this is very interesting, especially because of how I came into being a biotechnology founder. I guess my favorite foreign word would might be a little bit of slang in their word, right? I'm Jamaican by background, so, it's really nice because depending on who I have on my team, I can bring out some of the slang. 

When I'm talking to my UK peeps, I love when they use innit at the end of every sentence. You like that innit, right? You have that study done innit. I assume you want coffee innit? That's just in me ingrained from my time at law school in the UK. So innit is the one that I thought of when you asked me this question. 

Wendy: Oh, that is great. I've never picked up on that [00:21:00] one before. So I'm going to have to use that innit?  

Akeem: Exactly, right? It's a good conversation innit? It's so funny when they use it, but I'm like, I love it.  

Wendy: That is a good one. And that comes from living globally in different countries. 

Akeem: As a Canadian, I'll just say also everyone knows us for being nice and we put our A at the end of every sentence.  

Wendy: Innit and A are kind of interchangeable, right? In Jamaica, isn't there something after?  

Akeem: When I was going to use my Jamaican, the simple wagwan. Great. Wagwan. Wagwan, right? Walk into the room, Ricardo wagwan. 

And I love because our team is very diverse. So I love when we can talk to us in our local slang, but it's not like dismissing the science or the importance of what we're doing. It's just how we're comfortable growing up in our environments.  

Wendy: Yes, yes. Which is so important. I mean, that goes back to the whole DEI, the inclusive part of it. 

How do we make it all welcome and cherished? [00:22:00]  

Akeem: There's a gentleman and I'm so sorry, I can't remember his name right now, but I'll show you after. But he teaches science in the United Kingdom. He has a Jamaican background by heritage, but he teaches science in like UK slang. So it makes it so relatable because children and kids, myself for example, I dropped out of science in grade 10. 

I had no clue that I would be back here building a company like this in the future. I did do psychology in my undergrad, so I guess that helped me bridge, but once science went from just total science to the difference between chemistry, physics, and biology, I'm like, I'm confused. You guys lost me, right? 

Yeah. Let's go do our other stuff, but this one influencer, he teaches science in local slang and it makes it so relatable for kids who are like, okay now I understand what's going on or now I understand the design of the experience because he uses and he speaks with the innits, with the wagwans, with all the slang that normally kids speak with so I really enjoy when we get to do business [00:23:00] in local culture and local language without downplaying the science. 

It's just we all come from different areas of the world and this is how we express ourselves  

Wendy: Yeah, I did the same thing, once you started getting it down, it was theoretical, you lost me, but, as an adult, I've come back to it with all the fun parts of it, when you're scuba diving, or when you're in the woods, and how it relates into the whole world. 

You know, now I like science. I listen to science versus the podcast all the time. So it's true. Bring it to real life.  

Akeem: And it's really interesting because again, we have a long human history of using nature to heal us. Yes. So now being able to understand why this plant is good for this are what these specific ingredients do that our ancestors knew by just living. 

Right. Yes. Being able to put science behind it, that's very motivating for us.  

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. And it's global. Well, where can people reach you if they'd like to learn more or fund you?  

Akeem: So I'm always available on [00:24:00] LinkedIn at Akeem Gardner. Our website is canurta.com. C A N U R T A dot com and you can just reach out, send me an email, send me a message and I can share more about what our programs are doing, how we're advancing and how we hope to help patients who are suffering from major neurodegenerative diseases, improve their quality of life, manage their symptoms and providing more protection equivalent or better than the standard of care medicines available today.  

Wendy: Akeem, thank you so much. So if you want to find him on LinkedIn, it's A K E E M Gardner. I really appreciate you being here today. I have learned so much, and I did bring a copy of the book that I wrote called The Language of Global Marketing. 

I'd like to give that to you and wish you loads of loads of luck on all your endeavors and your global expansion. And if I can ever help in any way, please let me know.  

Akeem: Wendy, I will be in touch. Thank you for having me. Again, my apologies about the missed email. I'm so [00:25:00] glad we were able to connect today in person. 

Wendy: That is the beautiful thing about conferences. 

Akeem: It is, right?  

Wendy: Alright listeners, so thank you for tuning in to this wonderful episode with Akeem. I hope you learned tons about doing global business and thinking global from the start. If you know somebody you'd be interested, of course forward it along to them. 

If you think that you would be a good guest, go ahead and apply. You can just search for our show, just search The Global Marketing Show and apply to be a guest and subscribe to hear more. So I appreciate you tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode. 

 

 

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