Dr. Gregory D. Hess, President and CEO of IES Abroad, took the position right as Covid started.
With clarity on their values focused on academics, safety, and diversity, and by keeping close tabs on global events, he opens opportunities for students to study abroad for a deep intercultural experience.
The best benefit – the students are exposed to different cultures and experiences that give them power to deal with ambiguities.
In this episode, we also talk about his research and publications on how conflict/war affects economic growth.
He believes that by offering opportunities for students from around the world to develop relationships, IES Abroad encourages cooperation instead of conflict.
With his experience as a federal economist, a college professor, and non-profit executive, he’s fascinating to listen to.
https://www.theamandagorman.com/ - Amanda Gorman is the youngest inaugural poet in U.S. history, as well as an award-winning writer and cum laude graduate of Harvard University who studied abroad through IES Abroad.
Connect with Wendy - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendypease/
Connect with Gregory - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregory-hess-653a627/
Music: Fiddle-De-Dee by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com
ATTENTION: Below is a machine generated transcription of the podcast. Yes, at Rapport International, we talk a lot about how machine translation is not good quality. Here you see an example of what a machine can do in your own your language. This transcription is provided as a gist and to give time indicators to find a topic of interest.
[00:00:34] Wendy: Welcome listeners to today's episode of the global marketing show. As we're recording this episode, it's St. Patrick's day that whether you celebrate whether you're Irish or not, you could still celebrate it, especially here in the United States. We're having corn, beef and cabbage tonight. And as you know, we are sponsored by Rapport International who puts out tidbits and lots of posts on social media with all sorts of language and cultural information.
[00:01:04] So we'll do we'll, we'll lead off with an Irish proverb today. I am not sure how to speak Irish Gaelic, but it's . Ní Neart Go cur le Chéile. So my pronunciation, I'm sure I badgered that. If you know how to say it, send me a recording of it. So I know how to sit next year. But what it means is what's most important.
[00:01:24] It means there's no strength without unity. And I think that's such an appropriate one for the guests that we have today. I'd like to welcome Gregory Hess who has so much knowledge. We could spend hours talking to him, especially about what's going on right now. He's currently CEO and President of IES Abroad.
[00:01:46] It's study abroad provider that changes lives, and he knows about education as he's served as a college president. And in addition, he's a recovering economist and a dedicated arsenal fan. Now we're going to zero in on the recovering economist a lot today. So welcome Gregory. I'm so excited to talk to you today.
[00:02:09] Gregory: Thanks so much. I'm really looking forward. I've really been looking forward to being here today. So thanks so much one day.
[00:02:15] Wendy: Yeah. And as we were just talking about before we started the recording is that we were going to go one direction and talk about education and the international side of that.
[00:02:27] And you know how IES has changed his lives, but we got to talking about your background as an academic economist and you're well published in economics of conflicts. And so I'd love to start there. Can you tell me a little bit more about what you published as a professor and when, when you were on the federal reserve board.
[00:02:49] Gregory: All right. Well, you know, I've been fortunate throughout my career to have the opportunity. To do some, some broad research in, in, and some focused research and within the areas of conflict, both in terms of the great spectrum of conflict that's out there, but also to be able to zero in on individual elements of conflict, everything from wars between countries, whereas within countries you know, things like civil wars and revolutions, and also to look at issues of transnational terrorism, which are oftentimes you know, conflict with non nation state actors.
[00:03:24] And, and, you know, we've been able to trace a lot of it's it's connections to economic the economics of the situation, but also its impact on the economics of the situation and been fortunate to do that throughout my so let's begin with the first one we looked at was, you know, how, how the economics of a country could influence the timing of, of conflict and what we find kind of broad historical evidence that oftentimes wars happen when recessions happen that and we think that's, that's related to, you know, leaders trying to you know, divert attention from their current economic situation to get people thinking about their abilities in other areas.
[00:04:04] If they're not very good at handling the economy, sometimes they might be pretty good at handling conflict and conflicts pervasive. So you, you always want people who can handle. And and that's a paper we published in the mid nineties that that got some attention, particularly when we apply it to the United States.
[00:04:20] So that was a key article. We did, we've also found this to be kind of more comprehensive overall. So I think a lot of the early work we did was to try to trace what, what caused war. And I suppose maybe later on in my career with, several coauthors, we've looked at, you know, the economic impact that war has on countries and the impact that has on individual lives.
[00:04:42] Wendy: Chicken and the egg keeps coming to mind here because you have people who are in a recession, so they're unhappy, but starting a war to get their mind of it, It also stimulates the economy.
[00:04:55] Gregory: Yeah, well, I, I I've, I've tend to think that I, I tend to find a little bit less evidence for the, kind of the stimulative effect of of those wars.
[00:05:04] Cause because oftentimes those are in you know, the similar effects are mostly in terms of government spending and things that people can't consume on, on a regular basis. It might generate some income from them, but it doesn't really benefit their lives on a direct basis. So we, we, we tend to find evidence that war always makes people worse off.
[00:05:21] The question is that sometimes you need people who are who are good at handling those really difficult situations. So in some ways, starting a conflict allows people to particularly small ones and not necessarily big ones, but sometimes we find. Diverting their attention to smaller conflicts and demonstrating their ability to handle conflict is a good signal to you know, to, to members of a society.
[00:05:43] And so since you always know, conflict is going to be out there, you always want somebody, even if they're maybe not great handling you know, the economy, maybe they're a little bit better at handling their national security affairs. And as you know national security affairs are, are critical to every country throughout the world.
[00:05:57] Wendy: Okay. So as we're recording this on March 17th, 2022, we all know that there's a major event going on in the world and that's, Russia's invaded Ukraine. Right. And so I'm so curious on your take on this because it's just heartbreak braking. I just, I watched that and I don't understand because we've just had a major pandemic Gulf through here and.
[00:06:28] It seemed like Russia handled it. Okay. Relative to some of the countries. Why you know, and then he w Putin waited until the end of the Olympics to do this. So give me your take on from what did you find in your research to what's
[00:06:44] Gregory: going on there now? Well, what I have, haven't worked, you know, directly in terms of thinking through the, you know, all of the minutia of the causation of the situation.
[00:06:54] But if, I kind of look back at the broad sweep of the research that I've been able to, work on throughout my career , there, there are certainly, very egocentric, NACE, you know, nation building desires. It´s clear in, in Mr. Putin and what that does is that it, it means that he sees a lot of, you know, rents, a lot of benefits, a lot of ego associated with the creation of what used to be in terms of a bigger, broader sphere of influence for his country. And you know, that those, those, those benefits are not widespread.
[00:07:31] They do not necessarily benefit the average person in his country, but they certainly affect him positively and affect his inner circle, a quite positively. This is there a vision for their country. And as part of that, they were willing to minimize the impact, this, you know, the impact this will have on the average citizens of Russian, which will be huge losers from this conflict.
[00:07:53] There obviously it didn't take into account much of what's happening to the rest of the world, including Ukraine. They didn't mind inflicting a severe damage on the rest of the world and and the Ukraine. And he's willing to, to think that those rents, that he gets, that, that, that ego, that he gets that nation building, that he wants to see happen with him and his insiders outweighs all the other consequences.
[00:08:15] There will be severe negative economic consequences for the average Russian. I don't have to tell people there'll be huge losses in the Ukraine. And what I think he probably has not not fully considered is the ricochet effect this has on instability, both within his country and in a, in a neighboring countries.
[00:08:33] So maybe that's kind of the first point. I'd like to say that that's the big first point. The second point I'd like to say is that look, you know, ex external war is very costly, but it pales in comparison to the to the ricochet effect of, um, in some way, I haven't used a semi-load a statement here.
[00:08:51] The domino effect is, has on internal conflict and and, and civil strife within both his country and in other neighboring countries that, that will also weigh heavily on the region. And I think this is going to, the quicker we can ring fence, this issue, the quicker we can limit the effects of this external conflict the better the world will be, and the better that the citizens of all countries will be.
[00:09:16] Wendy: Okay. So we started out talking about, well, first I have to point out that I called him Putin. You were very respectful and call them Mr. Putin. And so I, I, I don't think I can quite, I can't quite get there to call him Mr. Any honorary. So we'll, we'll just go with that. But then going on you, we started out talking about how conflict can start during a recession. And so your, this, this was not recession driven. This was re really egocentric driven is what you're saying or
[00:09:51] Gregory: saying. Yeah. To, to my mind, you know, this was just much more you know, it was, it was a determination that, you know, that the people that support him, which you know, his as a reasonably limited limited circle that they would be huge beneficiaries in terms of this this broadening of, of their, their, their view of, of what the nation of Russia has been and could be.
[00:10:15] You know, I don't think there were any strong economic incentives for him to start it. He certainly has secured a strong position within his country. But the fact is that he has, a vision he believes he benefits from he somehow believes the rest of his country benefits from, but I think the history will show that countries that invade very seldom lead benefit from creating large external conflict in other countries
[00:10:39] Wendy: About like the history and what we can project going forward you know, God willing and all the hope in the world to get this over with quickly, ´cause it's just horrible, you know? So. I don't know the longer it goes, the worst economic diff it's going to have, but talk to me about the history of countries that have invade and what the economic effects are, because it's more than the sanctions we're putting on sanctions are only like the first level, right?
[00:11:08] Gregory: Yeah. Sanctions the first level. And then they have to think of just about, winning the war is not the same thing as securing the peace, that the instability within the Ukraine. in 2014, when Russia moved into into certain parts of Ukraine, they probably had a stronger presence of pro Russian people that, that might have kind of limited some of the collateral damage that could happen from it.
[00:11:30] But it's clear from the resistance that that's the rest of Ukraine is now is, is, is not going to go down easily in, in this fight. And, you know lot of countries be able to occupy other countries for a while, but there, there is always an underground resistance that could not only affect what happened.
[00:11:52] And their ability to manage Ukraine, but also maybe the ability to manage other parts of Russia. I mean, these, you, you don't control. Yeah. W once the genie's out of the bottle, it's very hard to control. How the how people resist it could be within the Ukraine. It could be other parts of Russia.
[00:12:09] I mean, it's it's going to have, it's going to be a very difficult situation for them, for the time being given the current path that they're on.
[00:12:18] Wendy: Okay. So can you take me back through history at you know, pick an instance where there was a conflict between countries like that and the ongoing economic constraints that they had or issues?
[00:12:31] Gregory: Well, you know, we can just think about some of the instances the US has gotten into over the past 20 years or so, or more, you know, response to 9 11. I mean, those are pretty impressive ones where, you know, we went to there, there was a presumed and perhaps a very strong, I won't comment on that more generally, there was a presumed strong national interest in moving into Afghanistan sources of where nine 11 you know had a foothold based on the intelligence at the time, the same with not, not just Afghanistan, but also potentially Iraq.
[00:13:05] And obviously that's not the history, there is not on a straight line, you know, that's kind of Securitas for how to get there both at the time. And certainly in retrospect we went into a country to create stability, to create a stronger economic environment. Really didn't take into account as much of the, how some of the local neighbors might act in response either to be rivals or to be supportive.
[00:13:34] In Afghanistan you can think about Pakistan with regard to Iraq, you might think of Iran. You know, a lot more things happened then than we ever expected. We spent a lot of time in there. We accomplished a number of our goals. I'm not sure US you know, ever, you know, Trillions of dollars on that, in, in, in that conflict, you know, I'm not sure how the benefits weighed out there.
[00:13:59] Obviously Afghanistan and Iraq have had their own dislocation and are recovering to some extent maybe that's, you know, but you know, there, there was, there was a lot of stuff going on for 20 years that you know, in response to those, to those decisions, that's the kind of tales that these types of conflict have.
[00:14:18] Wendy: So I'm going to push then, probably ask some naive questions, just to get the conversation going. So the US went in there and spent trillions of dollars yet our economy continued to grow. So as the, the country that invaded, if I, you know, keeping in the back of my mind, we're talking about Russia in the Ukraine, we continued to grow, whereas Afghan Iran Iraq, Pakistan, like they may have suffered more economic consequences, which would be the Ukrainian in the back of mind situation.
[00:14:54] Gregory: Yeah. Well, you know, I think, you know, we haven't quite paid the bills for those conflicts, you know, we've we debt financed a lot of them, so we haven't quite financed all the piece of it. Yes. The economy it did grow probably for a whole host of of other reasons. We ha you know, my, my guess is that the economies probably would've grown even faster, should we not have gone into those very long-term conflicts?
[00:15:17] And as you know, we have a lot of you know, service men and women who suffered greatly have not been able to fully. You know bring themselves back into the live state hope they'd have, or, or the workforce and, and and there's a liability, you know a financial liability there as well as we continue to help them in their in their recovery through in veterans assistance and and through you know, medical care.
[00:15:41] So, it has, you know, the overall economy has grown probably that, but not for everyone.
[00:15:46] Wendy: Okay. That's a good way of looking at, it's not that it's going to tank your economy, but it's going to hold you back. And there certainly all those costs let alone the people that have suffered.
[00:15:58] Gregory: Yeah, it's a huge a huge personal cost that that being said, you know, I, I'm not Pollyanna here at me. I recognize, as hopefully I said from the beginning, you know, wars are constant throughout history, you know, you do need a strong national defense. There, there are conflicts that are unavoidable.
[00:16:15] You know, it's not really, you know, I don't always know which ones are avoidable and I don't know which ones are unavoidable. I know is that there probably too many of them that happened in certain times for them to be just completely all unavoidable conflicts and sometimes a country starts.
[00:16:33] To divert attention. And and that just creates a a ripple effect that that, that doesn't dampen down for, for quite a while. And I think anytime we've seen big conflicts and unless, you know, we've had some big world wars that have finally calmed things down you know, but not without huge, huge loss of life and huge costs and sacrifice.
[00:16:51] So war is, is a bad thing, even if, even if it is part of our lives.
[00:16:56] Wendy: Right!. So listening to that, you're kind of saying war is unavoidable.
[00:17:02] Gregory: There's a part of it that is, you know it's, it's probably a smaller part. And I think some of the research we've also done suggests that there are some ways to make or less frequent and reduce its frequency such that it becomes much, you know, the unavoidable piece of it does decline a bit. There's a paper we wrote, a post and a general political comment, a number of years ago, based on a conjecture by Emmanuel Kant which is if the world were more democratic, if world were just peaceful and, and, and combined with what we call purely democratic countries, would there ever be war.
[00:17:40] And and that's a conjecture that Emmanuel Kant wrote about many years ago in a book called the perpetual peace. And in that book, he conjectures that if the world were just democracies, there'd be no war. And we have strong leanings towards there. We're still a little skeptical that that, that, that democracies is definitely part of the cure. It may not be the whole cure, but it's definitely part of the cure. And when we think about democracies, democracies should be led by leaders who care about the the welfare of the common person. They can't distinguish their own kind of ego benefit. You know, they they're, they're much better at diminishing their ego and their view of the nation and spend much more time thinking about the welfare of the common person and, and you'll find a rich in the political science literature that you know, evidence that broadly speaking countries that are democratic are extremely I mean, some say it's never happened.
[00:18:38] I'll say it's extremely infrequent that they ever go to war. Peer purely democratic countries.
[00:18:43] Wendy: . Okay. Now I majored in undergrad in foreign service in international politics. So did a lot of this and I, you know, I can remember having very mixed feelings. Like I'm completely against war. I see no reason for it.
[00:18:56] Let's just come to the table, talk it out and yell. We're not going to like it. And yeah, on the other hand, taking a course on the UN, I could see that people bring such different backgrounds in, it's hard to have a conversation when your, your view on the world is so different, but if you can unite around a democracy, that's good to know.
[00:19:22] Gregory: And democracy brings with it, a set of you know, norms and institutions. The institutions may differ across democracies, but oftentimes the norms don't but usually they are negotiation compromise based. Some of the things you'll find right now that are in less supply around the world, you know compromise is not considered a great word right now both within countries and across countries.
[00:19:48] And , but that's the basis of ultimately of democracy trying to think through how, you know, majority groups maintain the support , of non-majority groups. However you want to slice it in order to provide the common good, you know and that's something that we still continue to seek in each and every country and to bring those norms across the world we think ultimately supports
[00:20:13] Wendy: Okay, so that that's going to switch us over now to the students and teaching and working together and what you're doing.
[00:20:24] So how does IES change lives and help students grow?
[00:20:32] Gregory: Well? You know, one of the, kind of the fundamental basics of what we do at IES Abroad in terms of study abroad, is to make sure that students have a deeply intercultural experience and that they get an exceptional academic experiences as part of that. We think that by immersing students in another culture, learning how to navigate their commuting, their, you know, everything, the small things, buying groceries, having a place to stay, standing in line you know, all the things that are associated with working and living in a place that's unfamiliar, does build both habits and also understanding of kind of, what the other means, you know, and how other people live.
[00:21:18] And we think that that is a huge piece of of building you know, understanding both for themselves for people around the world, but also to bring that understanding back to their home country primarily the United States when you know, for our students but, but not exclusively, but bring them back to their home country in order to better understand themselves.
[00:21:38] And we think that's that, that is a truly life-changing experience both in terms of when they see new things, but as they realize they can handle new things we think that's also probably one of the other gifts. We bring them, not just intercultural understanding, but that understanding about how to appropriately navigate ambiguity. And we think intercultural understanding and you know, ability to handle ambiguity are life-changing skills that will serve them deep into their lives.
[00:22:06] Wendy: That is so into my core. I love hearing you say that. I've taken my kids on international travel every year, except during COVID to make them understand that.
[00:22:17] So your students, a lot of them, I'm assuming have never been out of the United States when they're going?
[00:22:23] Gregory: Yeah! I know a fair number , maybe they've been once abroad, oftentimes they have not spent that much time abroad. They certainly haven't spent , a month or a semester or even a year abroad and, you know, we find ways to get them ensconced in life.
[00:22:38] Now, you know, they're, they're confronted immediately with the fact that university life or an academic life abroad is a little different. So there's not a dorm half a mile away there's sometimes they have to commute. You know, they have to go to the grocery store more frequently. They they're with a homestay family.
[00:22:54] So they get to be in many of them are in with homestay family. So they get to be part of you know, build out a second family for themselves that can be a source of strength and comfort. So it, it, it does It is a super meaningful experience to them. As you know, many young people every young person who has a phone, which is basically every young person consider themselves to be a filmmaker, social media person.
[00:23:18] We, we now run this great film festival for students who build, build out films of their experience. And we have a film contest for them. So we have all sorts of ways to, for them to not only gain, gain their experience, but also to share their experience, not just with their own accounts, but also to try to share that more holistically.
[00:23:36] So, it´ s a life-changing experience for them and even though they may not have been abroad, you know, maybe never, or maybe more than once before in their lives.
[00:23:45] Wendy: I think that's so fantastic because that experience there will help them get into international business or development or, or anything.
[00:23:54] And I see so many adults that are afraid of it. So speaking of fears, what are some of the fears your students have or funny experiences from the start that they run into? Let's start with fears.
[00:24:11] Gregory: Oh, you know, , I think it's always fears of the unknown. I think primarily they're, they're kind of sometimes can be worried about the academic experience.
[00:24:20] What's it going to be like in a completely different environment. These are juniors who, you know, as freshmen got lots of Intel about which courses to take and how to manage the situation and, you know, all the good things about you know, getting in starting their college experience. And they now, they, they got to reshuffle the deck and now they don't quite know, you know, how do I get my books?
[00:24:39] Where do I go? You know, all these things, you know, as part of their academic life, which is, you know, one of the, which is I remind them is the primary reason they're there to be students. But of course, you know, they're often about trying to have some fun. They've always got to make new friends. So, you know, I think those are the two things that they worry about, you know, the classroom and you'll want to make new friends.
[00:24:57] And the answer is, we know how to get them and familiarize themselves with the academic experience. In seconds and yes, there are a lot of people just like them with the same kinds of fears. And that's a great initial bonding experience. We make sure they that they get those quick bonding experiences out of the way.
[00:25:16] Now, one of the things that the newest fear we've picked up, sometimes parents this is not an unusual thing in higher education. Parents are much more involved in their kids' lives. And you know, sometimes they, they project a little bit as well. As you know, there's always this view that there are helicopter parents out there.
[00:25:34] I'll let you know that the most frequent used term now certainly from my time as college president is I think it's now called the curling parent which means that there's usually one parent yelling instructions and another parent moving their feet and sweeping the room quickly, trying to make sure that the stone think of the student as their stone lands perfectly where it's supposed to be.
[00:25:53] So we do, we have to, like all other, like people starting with kindergarten and actually starting preschool and nursery school all the way through the pipeline. It's hit the college experience. And the study abroad experience that parents, you know, are, are starting to go a bit more involved.
[00:26:09] And we, we have a ways of working with that. Oftentimes it's the better people like visiting their kids and they're studying abroad, but you know we're doing our best to make sure that we can form the parents in a pretty efficient way so that the student gets the best experience out of it.
[00:26:24] Wendy: Yeah, I laugh. I, I would love to be a sweeping parent or a helicopter parent just because I love my kids and I want to know what they're doing, but boy, I've got a high school senior and he wants me nowhere. He just keeps setting those boundaries. I'm like, all right, go for it, if you want it!
[00:26:42] Gregory: That is a useful life skill, a useful life skill, you know?
[00:26:47] And my, my daughters did the same thing and, and you know, oftentimes there are those family dynamics and we always try to get those families to work that out themselves, we're happy to be supportive, but we, we, we want them to work it out together. Sometimes students and parents are not on the same page and then, and that's true throughout, you know, the whole educational experience.
[00:27:07] So yeah.
[00:27:08] Wendy: Well we're on the same page. I just would have him do it earlier and I would be more involved, but I'm trusting, he's going to get it done, cause I know he has goals.
[00:27:21] Okay. So, what countries do your students go to?
[00:27:25] Gregory: Oh my goodness gracious. We're in about 20 different countries.
[00:27:29] I think and that includes some of the well, all the major countries in Western Europe. So are almost all major countries in Western Europe. So. Spain, Italy, France, England, Austria, Germany. I know I'm missing someone. I'll hear about it later. But you know, we, we tend to have a strong presence in Europe per se.
[00:27:50] We have a presence in throughout Asia, both in China and Japan. Obviously those we´ve been having kind of longer pales in terms of the COVID experience that we're still trying to get those centers open and making sure we can get visas for students and all the like, and that's shared with drought study abroad.
[00:28:07] Obviously we, we also have a presence in central and south America, everything from Ecuador, Chile, Barcelona, and New Zealand. And in the other hemisphere, we've got Australia, New Zealand and then in Morocco as well. So we do have an experience for students there and Cape Town in Southern Africa as well.
[00:28:25] So we have a, we have a pretty nice footprint in terms of where we send students at U S institutions to I surprised is also unique in that we also merged number of years back with a company. And it's part of our organization now called the study abroad foundation, SAF and SAF actually brings students From other parts of the world and brings them to study abroad both in the U S but in other countries as well.
[00:28:47] So we're trying to provide more of an international platform for students to study abroad. Not non-trivial since every country has their own restrictions. And it, this is not as an economist, I'd say there's not like the market for apples. You know, there's not like a law of one price and seamless trade and all those other pieces.
[00:29:04] But the study abroad foundation supports students in China, Japan, and create a study abroad, both in the U S and in other countries around the world. And so we have both students, you know, from the U S going out, but we're also bringing students from around the world, into the U S and other parts of country and other countries as well.
[00:29:21] Wendy: All right, this is fascinating. So you've got kids coming in with the fear of unknown about academics already. They have that fear going into college. Now they're going off to one of the many kinda of, I mean, I'm just looking to think of Morocco or China or Japan. What language skills do they have to have to go?
[00:29:41] Gregory: Well, it, it, it does vary, in particular, in some of them, you know, in some cases there'll be opportunities in foreign countries than to take courses in English. Oftentimes they can do that. If they're comfortable enough, they can work with a local university adult, take some classes where else they can take classes in a foreign language in our centers as well.
[00:30:01] So they do have a range of opportunities. There are some centers that really specialize in, hone in on just pure language. I know on a, on a stricter version of language development, and we have a center in France and Nantes where, you know, it's the expectation that it's all in French from day one, and everything you do is in French.
[00:30:19] We do, we have somewhere in Spain as well as fovea. And obviously in other countries, we have to make adjustments for a student's ability. And you know, the fact that not every university has students prepared to the level that we need. But you know, language development and that is, is one of the things that we, we required students to get in, in our country.
[00:30:40] So for example, when students go to to Milan which is one of our biggest centers, they do take a course in introduction to Italian,, even though they may be taking courses in English at our centers, they will be taking Italian at the same time. Italian is a little harder language to get it than a US university.
[00:30:57] So it's just not, it's not as frequently taught. Even though it's a pretty standard language , throughout Europe. So in case we have a range of opportunities and arrangement we have a pretty good menu for students.
[00:31:10] Wendy: Okay. So, you know, when students are coming into the United States, they have to take the TOEFL test to make sure they know English well enough.
[00:31:18] But if you're an American student and you want to go to any of those countries, you can practically go to any, if you have no language backgrounds.
[00:31:27] Gregory: Yeah. That, that, that won't be true for every center that we have, but there will be options for students and perhaps the only language that they know, obviously places like New Zealand, Australia would be a kind of easy opportunities for them as well.
[00:31:43] Unfortunately, as you know, this semester as well, even for us right now, Australia and New Zealand are not available for study abroad, just because of the COVID and visa restrictions. And a visa wait times, or we expect there'll be open this summer. And and, and, and thereafter as has COVID I'm presuming receives, I think that's all the, all the good messages that we've received right now is that COVID continues to be you know, an issue, but a very manageable issue throughout our centers that we operate.
[00:32:13] Wendy: Right right now. I am kind of laughing as an expert in the language industry. We do translation from us English and do UK vice-a-versa and Australia. So you say it's easy. I'd have to say it's easy or
[00:32:29] Gregory: in trouble. I've been fortunate in my career. I've taught and been able to work both in the U S and the UK.
[00:32:34] I've taught undergrads, PhDs, MBAs in two different countries and yes. You know, you've got to be careful, certainly with language, but also in you know many cultural assumptions even in countries that I think, I think they share, but are divided by a common language, I think is the expression that's used in the UK.
[00:32:52] Wendy: Yes, yes. Yes. I've absolutely seen that's true. Yeah. Can you talk about a success story of somebody who went on the on one of the exchanges to, to study abroad and then maybe came back and got into business, or, you know, leverage that experience in the country that they went to?
[00:33:16] Gregory: So a person who's had a huge impact in her own life is is the young woman who was the poet Laureate for for Joe Biden's presidential inauguration, Amanda Gorman. Amanda was a student at our IES center in Madrid, and actually worked on one of her children's books when she was on IES Madrid program.
[00:33:34] And has been generous in her thanks to Abroad faculty for supporting her interest in, in building out those capacities. She did a little short little diddy for us. This is before, you know, before she became, before people knew she was the rock star that we knew she was, she did a little video for us thanking her and talking about what a great experience she had as abroad, particularly since, and you can watch the video.
[00:34:01] She, she had an appendectomy, I think, which delayed her, or she had a medical issue that delayed her getting into her Abroad experience for a couple of weeks. So you know, they got, they caught her up and helped work on her book and she's been exceptionally generous in her gratitude for IES Abroad.
[00:34:19] And, you know, obviously she's a a young person with just magnificent you know ability to capture the cultural pulse and to project it in. And, you know, in, in mellifluous ways. And yeah, I, I think I, I think we probably helped her a little bit, but I, I don't think anything was going to stop her.
[00:34:40] And, and, and, and fortunately, you know, we, we were just one of the organizations that, that were blessed by having her as a student. So I think Amanda, Gorman's probably probably the easiest one for me to think of right now. I'm sure on the way she'll pick up some some business acumen, I think she's doing pretty well right now.
[00:34:56] So there's, I think he's handling her affairs pretty nicely.
[00:35:00] Wendy: Oh, good. And you said she picked up the cultural pulse. Did she write her books about being a Madrid or what was the,
[00:35:07] Gregory: I don't, I don't believe so, but you know, she, you know, she just has that, you know, I know she worked on her or one of her books, children's books.
[00:35:14] That's I think why I wish I could remember the name of it. Something that it's about. Gosh, I've got two of the three words in, right in my head. I could Google it in a second, but she, she worked on one of her books when she was there for one of her children's book. But obviously she has an understanding of of culture.
[00:35:31] And we think an experience like I S where we emphasize intercultural experiences is you know, probably resonated and, and, you know, I'm not, I, for, for most students it amplifies their ability to, to have to be a cultural observer and to be a kind of a cultural countributer. And, and hopefully we guys, we, we helped her along that path.
[00:35:56] Wendy: Okay. Yeah. I Googled while you were talking "Changed sings. Children's Anthem" and then "The hill we climb. Book of poems". Sure. And then the inaugural poem for the country, the hill we climb. Yeah. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Okay. She, yeah, the sixth and youngest poet at the age of 22 to deliver poetry reading of the presidential inauguration.
[00:36:20] That's neat. That's really great. So she is a huge success. How about other, are there other students that went back to live? I mean, it's kind of hard cause they come in and do the, do the program. So you probably don't know if they're after they graduate the world.
[00:36:36] Gregory: We do our best to keep track meaning oftentimes they can find us.
[00:36:40] There's you know, a woman you know, I. To a couple of times and have been fortunate enough to meet she's you know, she's recently retired and she was in our program with us in in Aberdeen, which is a program we no longer run. And she talks about her year long experience there.
[00:36:56] She really had never thought about a world where she could have an international business experience until she spent a year in Aberdeen and realized that there was a great big world out there. And she spent probably her career probably on three or four, I think at least three different continents.
[00:37:13] Probably the super majority of her life and financial positions, you know, high-level financial positions and as a woman you know, that, and at that time in, in our history, that that was. Pretty you know, she was head of her time. She was on the Vanguard of finding ways to open up doors for, for other women.
[00:37:30] And I, I hear this time and time again, you know, particularly. And in certain cases in particular, in this case of this, this one alum who just said that, look, I would have never thought in the world, I could have had a career around the world and she did. And she's extremely grateful to us abroad for doing that.
[00:37:50] But, but, but I will say you are right. You know, people when they do study abroad are usually only first semester. So we don't quite have as much, you know, we aren't as, quite as sticky on them as, as like when their undergraduate institution, we don't have a football team or a basketball team or somebody to cheer about.
[00:38:05] Although I do, I do remind people are on our football team is undefeated. You know, we've never lost. So man, we haven't won either, but you know, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll take whatever we can get. But, but the fact is, you know, there are people who do you know, who, you know, in particularly business and international careers to make a difference, the nothing we're doing in.
[00:38:22] And you mentioned it earlier about how important inter study abroad experiences for students when they go in the job market. I I've always felt. Well, young people. Well, you know, regardless of their majors, you know, you can find your passion. But what you really need to do is find some skills and, and find some experiences regardless of your major and, you know, being, being a good writer is a great skill.
[00:38:43] Having great experiences like studying. Now is a great way to talk about life and talk about your adaptability and talk about your, your ethic in a job interview. And one of the ways we continue to amplify that is just through our not only do we have a study abroad program, but we also have a program that helps place students in internships, either part-time or full-time as part of their study abroad experience.
[00:39:08] And we work very closely because we have centers, we have over 30 centers around the world. We, we, we work with our, you know, our local communities to find small to medium-sized businesses that would be interested in having you know, us students help them in, you know in developing their skill sets.
[00:39:26] And it's a very popular program. We're extremely good at it. It comes with. Curricular piece, we ask them to be reflective about it to, to, to, and, and find ways to, to build out their skill sets part of it. But saying that, you know, you will help, you know, work with a firm in Italy as they were trying to develop and trying to help.
[00:39:44] In fact, one, one case of a student who actually had gone to the same high school, I didn't San Francisco. I met with a great Santa Clara student. When I was in Milan who had gone to the same high school, I didn't San Francisco, which is where I grew up. He was telling me that he was working for a small company in Italy that helps Italian companies break into the U S market.
[00:40:01] And he was talking about how much this made an impact in his life. And you know, how he could use this experience when he got back to the U S to further his his business desire. So it, his career desires. So we, we do make those kinds of connections for students all around.
[00:40:18] Wendy: That's fantastic.
[00:40:19] Now I just, earlier this week attended the conference was it was the state international development organization. So it's all the state trade directors that come in to gather and share best practices. Cause they offer free consulting to companies that want to export and they even offer grants. And I know some of them have an internship program.
[00:40:41] Do you place any interns in the United States are they're all international.
[00:40:46] Gregory: W w you know, for a time we've actually we're working towards, you know, for having international students outside of the U S come into internships in the U S so we do, we do have some of that, and we've we for a while, and this was pre pandemic.
[00:40:58] We had we were doing that both in New York and in Chicago. That was the destination places for students from outside the U S to come into the U S as part of their as part of their experience. And obviously the pandemics kind of put a bit of a crunch on that one, but it is something that we're looking to revive as, as the world goes forward.
[00:41:19] And, and I think our goal now is to continue that and to continue not only to make it a you know, a great experience. But also to continue to build out the skill development piece and find ways for them to connect those experiences so they can, you know once again you know, con kind of you know, cross fertilize, their experiences with other people of, of of their generation.
[00:41:42] So they're trying to pull these interns together to, to cross-fertilize what they've learned. And so, so that they all can more generously benefit from each individual experience. Oh, I think
[00:41:53] Wendy: It's fantastic. And, and each of the states have international offices too. So placing the students in internships at some of those lot local offices might be a good idea.
[00:42:04] Gregory: So wonderful. Yeah.
[00:42:06] Wendy: Yeah. So if anybody listening has any students that are interested in doing this, you can certainly reach out, we'll get Gregory's contact information on the show notes and also at the end. So now let's say, you know, this is also a show to help organizations with how they do their international work.
[00:42:25] You're working with people all over the United States. How do you handle your translation and interpretation?
[00:42:32] Gregory: Well, and in certain languages, you know, we had to have centers abroad who can do some of the work for us. So if we have a material and you know, in a certain foreign language where we have a center, we have a natural kind of go-to place to get things started.
[00:42:44] We do some of that abroad and we do some of it locally. You know, a lot of the things I've learned about moving from being a college president in the U S to being a. President CEO of a international kind of organization is that we have a lot of, lot, a lot of contracts and a lot of legal insights from from, from each of our countries which means and oftentimes when legal materials come to me, I get two versions of it.
[00:43:10] I see it in the original language and I see it translation language. And of course we have to look pretty carefully that, that legal language. So for, for better, for worse, a lot of the translated materials I see are side by side from law firms or from our legal consultants around the world.
[00:43:27] And you know, that, that's something I've just had just have to get used to. So but you know, our center directors around the world, their, their English is you know I would say you know, spectacular. You know, it it's spectacular. So we usually have most of our international communications in English.
[00:43:43] That's the language of the organization. But if we have to switch languages, there are people in there who can do it. They haven't had to translate for me directly, but usually I if things do have to get translated, oftentimes it's an, it's a more official capacity.
[00:43:57] Wendy: And what about when you're placing students at small and mid-sized businesses?
[00:44:02] Gregory: Yeah, well, oftentimes those so, so in, in the, in the cities where we do this, you know, it's done by the, the local centers, the local centers, you know, they're all, they all speak the the local language. So if, if it's in same Alon or Vienna, the there's a person who helps work directly with community members and they, you know, it's all done.
[00:44:23] If it's in Vienna, it's in German, it's in Alon, it's in Italian and they've worked directly with them. They might have an English ability. That's, you know if the firm's that's good, obviously if they're trying to help attack, in the example of the Italian firm is trying to help businesses come to us.
[00:44:39] Their English is, is pretty reasonable. So students can have some Italian, some English shouldn't be able to benefit from both from, from, from that kind of language development, holistically.
[00:44:49] Wendy: Right. And so I'm on your website now. So it's your focus mostly on American students going abroad. So you don't have any translation on your website cause you're, you're really attracting,
[00:45:02] Gregory: but if you look at SAF and we do that, we do have a Chinese website, a Japanese website or Korean websites.
[00:45:08] We will yeah, in fact, one of our we just announced it will be. Allowing, you know, we'll be working with students to go abroad. So we'll have a center in a center presence in a center type presence, I should say, in Seoul, Korea, but we also use that same presence in Seoul, Korea to bring students from Seoul to the U S and other parts of the world as well.
[00:45:29] So if you look at the SAF study abroad foundation, which is part of our overall rapper overall business, then then, then that is where the foreign language takes place. And a lot of that's done abroad. So when we do our websites there, we have teams in China teams, in Korea teams, in Japan, into the translation for us and, and make the websites.
[00:45:50] Wendy: Okay. Yeah. I see the Chinese is up here. Yeah.
[00:45:55] Gregory: And obviously that's been, you know age has been disrupted through COVID, you know, to, to a larger extent than, than other places, just in terms of the flow of students. Just because of COVID protocols, you know, different cultures and but Japan and Korea are full steam ahead and China is working, but still have some things to work out.
[00:46:18] Is there is there evolving COVID protocols dictate.
[00:46:22] Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. So it'd be good to have your, your Japanese and Korean in the dropdown menu for navigation. So yeah, just a hint. The other thing we were talking about legal contracts earlier, and you said that you see both versions. Do you have a clause in there that says which version will prevail?
[00:46:44] If there's a question about the translation?
[00:46:46] Gregory: That's a great question. I I'd have to think hard about it. I it's been a while since I've looked at one, but I I've I've I would defer to my legal counsel on that one. I'll leave, I'll leave it to my legal counsel to, well, that
[00:46:59] Wendy: is a suggestion that we give to attorneys companies.
[00:47:02] Yes. Just make sure you have that clarity so that when you're not fighting over, which one is right. Okay. Yeah, so we're, we're getting down to you know, the last few minutes. What advice would you give going from a president to now heading up an international organization? What advice would you give to others that are leading an organization that are working international or thinking about working
[00:47:31] Gregory: international?
[00:47:32] Well, you have to kind of get ready for earlier calls and later calls in the day. Although sometimes it was a college president, you don't get the early calls, you just get the late night calls. Those aren't so fun. But usually it's the early morning calls that you have to kind of get ready for.
[00:47:46] I would say that you know, you really have to continue to stretch your understanding of how the world works, you know, us us universities, Yeah. I, I always tell people we're like small religious nation states, you know, when to stand, you know, when to sit, you know, and to saying you know, the words, all the songs, you know, the great you know, the great and the good, the people who've made the university of the way it is.
[00:48:09] Um, You know, you know, all the sayings, you know it feels like that any stages, it's the reasons why there are so many and why it's so hard to make them ever to merge, because they could never imagine merging with one another they're these unique beings. But you realize that in the world, you know, it's kind of like, it's more like a Federation of, of of religious nation states that, you know, you're dealing with.
[00:48:30] So you really have to really expand that scope and really, really think hard about. The connective tissue of the organization that really makes it work. You spend a lot of time sorting out the common features and the, and the idiosyncratic features cross places and you do have to spend a lot more time thinking about what's important and what's not important in the world.
[00:48:55] And I, I think those are the things that I've had to really grapple with. Now, of course I accepted the position just a week or two before the pandemic started. So, you know you never know what job you accept. Let's say that way, but you know, we, I, I'm extremely fortunate that I followed an exceptional CEO who wisely built a nest egg for the organization.
[00:49:17] And we've been able to use the time even during the pandemic to become an even stronger institution still. And, but, but I do, I do a great deal to Mary for the exceptional work she did at ISTH abroad before I got here. And my job now is to continue to find the gas, you know, step on the accelerator as
[00:49:36] and as the world. I would say normalizes, but that's not quite the word maybe as the world continues to and its own unusual way before.
[00:49:45] Wendy: Right, right, right. Okay. So that's really interesting about how you say it is what's the connective tissue about what goes across, you know, and talking to businesses there, that's usually the mission, the mission and the vision and the values is.
[00:50:00] So is that what you're talking about?
[00:50:03] Gregory: It is, you know, I mean, we, we focus really hard on, on the things that, that are the utmost important eyes are brought in. And let me just you know, repeat them, say, everybody knows we, we, you know, we are the strongest academic study abroad organization out there.
[00:50:17] And we emphasize our academics. First and foremost at the same time, we also are the organization that is known for health and safety protocols, keeping our students safe you know, working with students when they do hit you know, road bumps in their health and, you know, both mental and physical and, and we, we do just exceptional outreach to make that work.
[00:50:39] Finally, you know, diversity has has been for a long time, you know uh, S abroad has been at the Vanguard of diversity in study abroad to make sure that say broad experiences for for students does reflect the great breadth and depth of, of our country in terms of diversity. And that's an area where we put our dollars where our mouth is.
[00:51:01] We do our best to make it affordable for students. And no, to, you know, to to study abroad, to engage in that socioeconomic diversity it's out there in our country. So th th those are our three core values. Everything tends to come back to that. And that's something that we, you know, maybe I should tape it up on my wall every day.
[00:51:21] I don't know. But, but it certainly on my sticker here, I'm like, oh my monitor. I mean, that's the next best thing as well. That's what we focus on. How do we get better at those three things each and every.
[00:51:32] Wendy: Well, you know, from we're recording this on video and you didn't even have to look down at the sticker to know what the three were, and if you get an organization that can articulate those three things, I, you know, I think you're doing a fabulous job.
[00:51:47] So Okay. I think, you know, you're that I'm going to ask that you've had this international experience. You hear all sorts of words. So the question is, what's your favorite foreign
[00:51:58] Gregory: word? Oh, well, you know, he gave me a heads up on this one and I'll have to cheat on this one, which is it's actually a phrase and it is one of my favorite phrases.
[00:52:09] And every once in a while I drop it on people. It's Italian. I am sure I will make a hash of that. So apologies to to all those who love and speak of time, but it's it's an expression I learned when I, when I visited a buddy abroad. And when I was in graduate school you know, in Milan it was and he taught me a couple of phrases, but one I never forgot and one is, and I will make a hash fit, but it's, it's cook, cook colonoscopy, email poli, which.
[00:52:34] I know my chicken which is kind of a nice way of saying if somebody is trying to be smart, but you kind of see through them, you know you can say, I know my chicken and it's you know in case I can take my buddy from grad school, John Carlo press for for, for dropping that on me many years ago.
[00:52:51] And you know, every once in a while I dropped it on Italian people and they just like, oh, where the heck do you get that? So yeah. I know my check-in. I'm going to try Conosco EME poli. I know my check. It's actually, I think I know my chickens but to my mind, it sounds better. I know my chickens.
[00:53:12] Wendy: Well, it's funny, you know, how in the unit in United States, when we get cold, we get goosebumps and Italian it's called
[00:53:19] Gregory: chicken skin. Oh, very good. Well, that makes sense. That makes sense. I was actually somewhere when somebody was trying to organize an event and you know, my buddy said, oh, we got to go to
[00:53:31] And I said, I, you know, I want to go to Savannah says, I bet you five bucks, this person, the person who's organizing it, doesn't show up. And and I will tell you, I w I went a long way to this event. The person did not show up. My buddy gave me five bucks and he said, how did you know.
[00:53:51] he had no idea what I said and I said, it means, I know my check-in you go good luck. That's what I said. I knew the person who organized it wouldn't show up. Oh,
[00:53:58] Wendy: that's hysterical. There's so many uses for that. Like I said, I have a high school and senior, I got to keep those words front and center. All right.
[00:54:07] How about your
[00:54:08] Gregory: favorite vacation? Oh, favorite vacation? My goodness gracious. Probably two of them. I dunno. So it's hard for me to pick one. One was one I did with my whole family. And that was to Turkey. I'd always want to go to Istanbul for the longest time of my life. I've you know, as an economist who believes in conflict, I, you know, I kind of have this, this map in my head, which is sadly, some of the most interesting places are the ones that have been fought over, you know, Jerusalem is and bull, you know, just go through.
[00:54:38] . Well, if you
[00:54:38] Wendy: look at geopolitics, they're also rich and resources, they have access to waterways. There's a lot of reasons that they're fought
[00:54:45] Gregory: over. Yes. Then bull is it was just scores, the layers of history, the culture, the warmth of the people.
[00:54:53] It was, it was fantastic. The other one was the Galapagos and a golf course is actually a place where I S abroad has a center. I'm telling you, it's not the biggest center in the world, but if you do, if you're a young person with an interest in environment, ecology you know Marine aquatics Marine biology is how's, there is a fantastic place to see the world and to see and, and.
[00:55:15] Have a a, you know, to, to, to fill out your experience with the importance of sustainability and what care of the environment really means. One things that, another thing that we continued to emphasize at I surprised through our, through our work. So I would say those are those. The two of, if I had to pick out, I'd have to flip a coin to decide which firm was better.
[00:55:34] But one hour we did with our family, that was the Istanbul spent a week to 10 days. There was fantastic. And the second one was just my wife and I went to my wife, Laura and I went to other Glasgow's, which was fantastic for.
[00:55:47] Wendy: My mom took my son to the Galapagos and they loved it. He has told me so many stories about being there.
[00:55:54] So I will tell him about the IES program.
[00:55:57] Gregory: You know, I would tell people, at least when I visited, you know, it's, it's, you know, you're not there to lie in a hammock. Yeah. You're there to it's, it's a context, not a context for it, but it's a, it's a participatory sport. You are you're in the water, on the Zodiac in the boats.
[00:56:12] That it's it's nonstop. It's it's fantastic. Oh
[00:56:15] Wendy: yeah. Yeah. The pictures he brought back were
[00:56:18] Gregory: it's actually run through our Quito center in Ecuador. So it's but it's a great, it's a great program for students successfully. We're not as list. There you go. Okay.
[00:56:30] Wendy: In your memorable cross-cultural experience.
[00:56:36] Gregory: Oh my goodness. Gracious. Oh, so I spent so you know, my, my background, I started my career off the fed reserve board. I still hang out a little bit in central banks you know areas. And I know a lot of central bankers cause a lot of them are my vintage. A lot of them start off from the federal reserve system, but I spent a summer working with the central bank of Japan in Tokyo.
[00:56:57] And I had my family came, oh, I hope I, he was with me for about half the time and I was there the other half, but at one point I had to go get my haircuts and you know, and always my Japanese, I could say I can count to 10 and a few other things, but very limited. I did have a wonderful assistant who had to go with me everywhere.
[00:57:14] I went for the first couple of days, but you know, in a very unexpected way. She had to take me to go get my haircut and had to explain. And, and this is from what I was told is not a place generally where women would go, but you know, I, and you know, for some reason I, maybe I should have thought to have her just write down, but she had to come in with me to go get my haircut, which was pretty funny since she was definitely the only woman in a very large place with lots of men.
[00:57:37] And I was like, oh, that was that was something I learned then, which is maybe, yeah, there's gotta be better work around. Or maybe I tried to find a different way to do it, but it was like one of those moments, like, okay, I'm not, I'm not in the United States of America.
[00:57:50] Wendy: I don't
[00:57:51] Gregory: know my chickens. I do not.
[00:57:53] I suppose. Yeah. So, so that, that, that was probably one of the greatest cultural, like, okay. Every place is a little. Right,
[00:58:00] Wendy: right. Yes. Yes. Cause you wouldn't have even anticipated to think that
[00:58:04] Gregory: this whole and, and, you know, I don't know if people can see me on the podcast, but just be honest, I'm not the most difficult haircut to figure out.
[00:58:11] So, you know, I'm like, you know, it's usually a number of the Clippers one or two it's, it's not that hard, but even getting to that point at that time in my life was definitely an adventure.
[00:58:20] Wendy: Oh my gosh. That's fantastic. Now, where can people find you or reach out to you if they want to
[00:58:26] Gregory: learn.
[00:58:27] Well, you know obviously our website, I S abroad is a great way to reach out to us. My my email and I don't think it'll crispy too much. It was my first initial, my last firstname.lastname@example.org. So that's a pretty straightforward way to IVs abroad.org. Obviously just contact anybody I see abroad and it it'll get to me, but or, you know, we, we have as I mentioned, I think I mentioned kind of, kind of our four.
[00:58:54] You know, the four things we do is we do standard study abroad semester long programs. That's kind of our bread and butter. We have our SAF program, which brings so I S abroad is both the name of our umbrella organization, but also our standard business as a study abroad foundation, SAF brings students from outside the U S to the U S and to other countries.
[00:59:13] That's the second line of business. The third one is internships and. Build out opportunities for students to learn about business around the world. And the fourth one is our customized and faculty led programs. So if universities or faculty have an interest in running a program and want to kind of hand off some of the maybe they need some help in, in, in some of the courses, maybe they can handle some of the courses, not all the courses.
[00:59:36] Maybe they want us to create a program explicitly for them and handle all the courses. And if they wants to do all the back office stuff, get the visas find, get the housing, get the logistics, all done. That's our customized and faculty led programs, business all for them are terrific and are happy to help anyone who's interested in creating life-changing experiences for their students.
[00:59:59] Wendy: What's the name of the
[01:00:00] Gregory: one? Oh, no, the faculty one. So it's customized. I apologize for that. Customized in faculty led. So sometimes you know oftentimes their faculty are interested in you know taking classes to well, you know, maybe they have an interest in going to Rome and learning about the history of Rome for a couple of weeks.
[01:00:20] That's a pretty standard one. That's something we do pretty regularly. And that might be an example of the type of program, but obviously getting into the right places, having somebody to teach about the history specific to the different areas, all those things are all things that we're able to do, but both in places where we have centers in places where we don't have.
[01:00:39] Wendy: Okay. Okay. That makes them a lot more sense. I heard factory and that didn't make sense. Okay. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing all this information. I mean, there's, this has just been a wealth of, of resources for people to do when it's fun to see your academic, your banking and your, you know, now business experience all merged together.
[01:01:04] So thank you, Gregory.
[01:01:05] Gregory: Hey, thanks.
[01:01:08] Wendy: Oh, I appreciate it. All right. Everybody who listened, this has been great. You probably know some college students are our kids that are going off to college. Send this episode off to them. So they understand what the value was of doing an international exchange program.
[01:01:24] Or if you know that their parents are highly involved, send this episode to the parents to make sure that the kids can cause that's the reality of today. So there is also a Facebook group that if you want to get on and engage with other people that are interested in international business it's called global marketing and growth on Facebook. You just apply to get accepted and we'll accept you. And and then you can communicate with other people or even get this discussion going about who's going to do in internships.
[01:01:54] So thanks so much for listening and tune on next time. Don't forget to follow so you can get notification whenever we launch a new episode, talk to you later.