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#131 | Rapport Across Cultures

Navigating cultural differences while building a company culture or consistent brand voice can be challenging, but it is not insurmountable, says Carole Copeland Thomas, a recent podcast guest on The Global Marketing Show, especially with support from knowledgeable experts and a willingness to learn. 

Carole is founder of C. Thomas & Associates, a full-service speaking, training, & consulting firm specializing in multiculturalism, diversity, and women’s issues (http://www.tellcarole.com/). In this episode, she outlines how culture – and cultural differences – affect relationships, and she provides real-world advice on successfully navigating and incorporating those differences into local and larger communities. 

Carole has found that the definition of “culture” can be nebulous; when asked, we all instantly know what it means, but it’s hard to define. By her description, the concept encompasses the social norms, behaviors, knowledge, arts, beliefs, customs, and habits of a group of people. As an expert in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) for over 40 years, she likes to explain it using the “Iceberg Model of Culture” developed by Edward T. Hall in 1976.  

The top of the cultural iceberg stays visible to everyone. It contains the community’s fine arts, literature, music, food, games, and dress. People outside the culture see these superficial elements. 

The bottom of the iceberg, the biggest part of any culture, hides beneath the surface and influences less quantifiable aspects like: 

  • Eye Contact: In the US, children learn the importance of direct eye contact whereas in Japan, children are taught the opposite, that direct eye contact is considered rude, aggressive, and disrespectful.  
  • Time: Some cultures are strict about time and others allow for more flexibility. In Germany and Denmark, for example, meetings start at the appointed time, yet in Japan and China, it’s customary to arrive 15 to 30 minutes early. In Latin American and Latin European countries, flexibility is more common. 
  • Personal Space: People have varying levels of comfort with touching, standing close together, and holding hands with friends. In North America people typically hold each other at “arm’s length,” while Europeans tend toward “wrist length” and those in the Middle East prefer “elbow length.” 
  • Gestures: In India, people will shake or “bobble” their head to mean “I hear you” or “I don’t know,” or to say “yes” or “no.” The closest conversational response in the US would be simply “hmmm.”  

The examples above illustrate only a small number of all the cultural components that might affect company culture and co-worker relationships. Other areas of potential contention commonly include: 

  • Approaches to problem solving 
  • Notions of leadership 
  • Tempo of work 
  • Patterns of group decision-making 
  • Status mobility 
  • Ideas about logic and validity 
  • Conversational patterns 

Typically, people understand their own cultural norms yet underestimate how much cultural differences can affect relationships. Listen to the full episode for additional details on these real-world culture-clash situations Carole has managed.

In one instance, a client company’s employee hailed from an island in the Caribbean where non-intimate physical contact was acceptable in the workplace, among all genders. Issues arose when others misconstrued the behavior as inappropriate. By helping the team understand the employee’s cultural context and setting clear expectations, Carole was able to restore respectful, solid working relationships and a unified company culture. 

In another instance, a young manager was hired to lead a team of about 25 people, including a dozen employees older than the new hire. Unbeknownst to the new manager, the older black members of the team expected the manager to address them as “Mr.” or “Ms.” to show respect for the age difference. Resentment within the team grew, until Carole and the manager uncovered the issue and found appropriate ways for the manager to address the workers. As Carole puts it: in some cultures, age commands respect and in others, it’s about one’s status or position. Navigating through this can be difficult. 

And even with her expertise in cultural issues, Carole has encountered cultural challenges in her personal life. When she became a grandmother, she wanted a special name instead of being called "grandma" like her mother. Since she frequently travels to Kenya, Carole decided she liked “nyanya,” Swahili for “grandma.” Only after years of her granddaughters calling her nyanya did she learn that the familiar name for grandma in Swahili is actually “bibi.” Throughout, her granddaughters were actually using the formal term for "grandmother,” which is also Swahili for "tomato"!

Solutions 

In every cross-cultural situation, Carole first aims to build rapport and alignment. She assesses the manager’s awareness and willingness to improve relationships and if she can work with the individual, she collaborates with them to enhance the team, starting with fundamentals such as: 

  • Developing rapport individually with each team member. That doesn’t mean “getting into that person’s business”; she simply finds it beneficial to get to know each person on an individual and professional basis. Carole recommends scheduling time with people for coffee, lunch, or a conversation, with no set agenda. Even if there are 40 people on the team, it is always worth the time to meet with each person. 
  • Reflecting upon the strengths and weaknesses of the team to understand what people contribute. Consider creating a SWOT analysis of personalities to get a bigger picture of the group’s dynamics. 
  • Communicating the vision that rallies the team to work together toward shared goals. A shared vision unites people as they focus on achievements together, depend on each other for diverse contributions, and celebrate as they reach milestones. 
 Ultimately, Carole’s best advice for working cross-culturally starts with you: 
  • Learn about your own culture. Raise your awareness about your native culture. We aren’t often aware of the way we do things naturally, without thinking, and how those instincts impact the ways in which we approach every situation. Culture is most invisible to its own participants – just consider any stand-up comedian’s material about “Americans”! 
  • Keep trying. Network with others to keep learning. Contact colleagues, ask for introductions at local embassies, companies, or associations to get tips about cultural differences and how to navigate them. Interpreters are a great resource for facilitating conversations and often serve as a cultural conduit to assist with communication beyond words, in real-time. 
  • Ask for forgiveness! Reach out, engage, and try, try again. People readily forgive mistakes made by anyone who is friendly and curious. 
Carole’s experiences are real-world proof that these strategies work to bridge cultural divides and build thriving, cohesive teams and communities. Listen to the full episode for even more excellent advice! 

 

Read the Episode Transcript

ATTENTION:  Below is a machine-generated transcription of the podcast. Yes, here at Rapport International we talk a lot about how machine translation lacks quality. Here you see an example of what a machine can do in your own language. This transcription is provided as a gist and to give time indicators to find a topic of interest. 

 

Wendy Pease: Good day listeners of The Global Marketing Show. It is always so much fun when I get to interview somebody that I have a huge respect for and that I've known for many years and consider a friend. So we'll get to that in a minute, but first I want to remind you that The Global Marketing Show is brought to you by Rapport International.[00:01:00]  

And we always have a tidbit from Rapport. Today's on pouring wine. And did you know that if you're in Argentina and you pour wine with the left hand, it's a major insult? And pouring wine backwards into the glass indicates hostility. So you gotta know your manners and you gotta know how to do things when you're working cross cultures. 

So let's kick it off and I'm going to have Carole Copeland Thomas introduce herself because she's amazing and I want to get her talking from the get go. So Carole, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.  

Carole Copeland: Thank you, Wendy. It's a pleasure. We've known each other for many years. You are a very, very wonderful dear friend, a strong advocate for the work that I'm doing, and just enjoy being on your show. 

So thank you much. I appreciate that. I look at myself really as a global diversity strategist. Proudly in [00:02:00] the DEI space. And I say that because talking about words, those words now have become politicized and weaponized in a negative sense that reflect the exact opposite of what they stand for when you're looking at diversity, equity, particularly equity and inclusion. 

So I have been in that space now almost 40 years, very proud of it. And my goodness, there's so much more work to do. So, that's where I start. And speaking of hands, not only should you not pour wine with your left hand, not only in Argentina, but in many Middle Eastern countries, do not shake a person's hand with your left hand. 

And the reason for that is that oftentimes in certain cultures in certain regions, they still use a more primary form of going to the bathroom. And that left hand is very important in that process.  

Wendy Pease: That is so nicely and delicately [00:03:00] said. I do feel bad for the left-handers every time I, you know, hear about that. 

Carole Copeland: That would be my brother and my granddaughter who are both left-handed.  

Wendy Pease: Yes. Yes. Yeah. All right. So Carole, we want to talk about culture today and how culture can enhance our lives, but it also can cause trouble there. So why don't we start out with asking you, what is culture?  

Carole Copeland: Well, you can look at culture a number of different ways. 

I'm looking online now, and a specific definition would be the arts and the other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively in the 21st popular culture. That's one way of looking at it. You can also look at culture in terms of the concept that includes social behavior, institutions, norms found in human societies, and it's a way where you're looking at a specific group or a specific type that have very [00:04:00] similar traditions or habits or values that represent their particular sect within the human framework. Now, that's from more of an ethnic point of view or a nationalistic point of view, but we expand that definition when we look at, let's say, cultural dynamics in a corporation, cultural dynamics in an institution. 

For 18 months, I was very happily serving as the interim Chief Diversity Officer for a college here in the Boston area, Curry College. And I established the position, but I also realized that I was working in higher education, which I've done before, but from a different perspective. 

So even my influence and the work that I was doing was looking at it from a higher ed lens because I was working for that institution. As a trainer and a speaker and a [00:05:00] consultant and a facilitator, I just facilitated a board retreat this past weekend. I have to look at the culture of the organization, look at the culture of the greater community as I'm doing my work and making recommendations. 

So culture is a very fluid word that can sort of sit in different pods based on how it is perceived and how it's used.  

Wendy Pease: So people who come from different cultures can really run into problems or misunderstandings or conflict when they don't understand each other. After working in this area for years, can you give me some examples and stories about where you've seen this going on? 

Carole Copeland: But what I'll do first, Wendy, is let me just sort of set the framework for a representation of culture. And I'm going to use Dr. Edward Hall's great example that's used quite a bit. It's the [00:06:00] iceberg concept of culture. And that concept looks at the the superficial way that we connect with culture or we don't connect with culture that is above the surface, similar to an iceberg. 

And then the deep layers of cultural dynamics that are underneath the surface that don't always appear evident, but are there and can be transformative. And oftentimes, either a connector or a disconnector based on people, places, and things. I'll give you an example. The one example I'm thinking of, and that's time. 

And when I'm looking at this example of Dr. Hall, he has various concepts that are above the fold, above the surface of the water, per se. Such as folk dancing, cooking, dress, fine arts, drama, classical music, popular music, those are things that people can relate to and can be very cross cultural. 

But then when you [00:07:00] get underneath the surface, you're looking at concepts like courtship practices. And that's where sometimes in some communities, such as the Indian community, the Indian culture, which is multi faceted in terms of the number of cultures that are there. But when you look at an arranged marriage, that's very different than a love marriage. 

So the courtship practices would be arranged by the parents versus a love marriage, which would be addressed by the actual individuals who find themselves in love. That's a part of culture that's underneath the surface. Also, other aspects of definition of eye behavior. That's another good one. 

In some cultures, you don't look an older person directly in the eye. That's a form of disrespect. Some people will look at individuals away from looking at them directly. In Western cultures, [00:08:00] in the American culture per se, generic American culture. It is common and we teach people how to look a person directly in the eye as a show of strength or assertiveness, which is counter to other cultures where that's not done. 

But I think the most famous one in terms of being underneath the surface is time and how time is equated and how time translates versus various cultures. In tropical cultures, in cultures that have originated in tropical or sub Saharan areas of very hot tropical climates, sometimes you have the concept where people are fashionably late, where they're not necessarily punctual. 

And punctuality is not prioritized versus some other aspects. In the African American culture, we call that CP time. We use the old fashioned term colored people's time, [00:09:00] is still very prominent in the black community when somebody shows up late. Now that does not mean that time is not important. 

And you can even in one family as I have, I have one daughter who is extremely punctual. She will leave hours early so that she will turn up on time, versus another daughter who can be fashionably late. I can be fashionably late from time to time. So you can have these kind of dynamics that play itself out in a family, but the overall culture gets branded for this fashionably late concept, which is underneath the surface, which is called CP time. 

And I say that broadly because I've worked with so many different audiences. It's not just the African American community. I've heard individuals in India, talking about India time. I've heard other groups and other ethnic groups talking about their level of time. So we don't corner the market on that. 

That's just a representation in terms of [00:10:00] time and its complexities.  

Wendy Pease: I have to ask something here at the beginning, when you were talking about time, you said it typically comes from tropical or sub-Saharan climates. Why is that connected? I've never put that together.  

Carole Copeland: It could be just a matter of lifestyles and the weather patterns, which then have a relationship with the culture of that particular group of people, where they live. 

And I'm saying that because I've been to parts of Africa and fashionably late can go hand in hand with various cultures in Africa. But the same thing can be true for India, which is also a tropical climate. Same thing can happen with the islands in the Caribbean. So, I'm broadly saying, from a tropical point of view, from a hot climate point of view, there can be a [00:11:00] connection with time and it's connection and it's importance versus those European countries, colder climates per se, where punctuality is more valued, is more prioritized. 

Specifically, I'm just thinking about Germany and just their level of discipline in terms of time or England, etc. So this is very broadly said, but climate could have something to do with punctuality.  

Wendy Pease: You know, I've known there's differences and you have to figure out how to manage the local time, but I've never put together that it's in a hot climate versus a cold climate. 

So that's fascinating. Okay, so you have courtship, you've got whether you're looking at somebody in the eyes or not, and you've got time. What are some of the other cultural elements that are underwater.  

Carole Copeland: Another one would be spatial. So again, this relates to people based on [00:12:00] their particular habits and their culture. 

 There are some western cultures, particularly here in America, where you want your personal space. So you have a level, it's an invisible, like a parameter of space where if you're talking to somebody, if you're in a conversation, or if there is a debate that takes place, you want to keep people at a distance based on your level of comfort. 

Now, again, that can differ from place to place, and I'll give you an example where it can be misconstrued as well. I worked with a client some years ago where we were having this discussion as part of our work that we were doing, and a person who came from one of the Caribbean islands, I'm not going to name it, but it's a Caribbean island where space was much closer in parameter than space here in the United States. 

So much so [00:13:00] that touching and connecting with the opposite sex was normalized in a way that has not been normalized here. So that in this group, having conversations between the sexes could be misconstrued sexually because of how space is defined in that particular country versus here in the United States. 

True story, and it was fascinating for me. I also know, having again traveled to some 30 countries or whatever, that space, and that personal space can also be redefined based on where you are and what country you're in.  

Wendy Pease: Yeah, that's fascinating. That is so true. I mean, you can go to some countries and see two women who are just friends holding hands and walking down the street where you see guys. 

Carole Copeland: Two men.  

Wendy Pease: Two men. Yes, I've seen that kissing and hugging. Yeah. [00:14:00] So that's very different if you're coming from the United States and you don't expect to see that.  

Carole Copeland: And understanding, at least having some level of understanding of these different cultures before you visit or before you do business with a particular country. 

I think it's hugely important from an American point of view to understand this and not to assume that your particular cultural framework is the same as someone who lives in a different country.  

Wendy Pease: Okay, so there's all of these things, you know, and I've seen that iceberg, and if anybody hasn't seen it yet, we'll put a link in the show notes to where you can go and look at it, or you can look at the culture iceberg. 

I think you could, wouldn't that be the best thing to search for?  

Carole Copeland: Yeah, it's Dr. Edward Hall, he's the anthropologist whose concept of this comes from, and it's the iceberg concept of culture.  

Wendy Pease: And if you look at the top of the iceberg, there's only a few things that overlap, and then [00:15:00] you have language and all these other cultural things that are going on. 

And so you started to talk about, you know, you need to understand, but sometimes you wouldn't even think to research it because you wouldn't know it's there. So do you want to start with giving some examples and how you've gone in to help solve the problems? Let's do the problems first and then we'll get to solutions. 

How's that sound to you?  

Carole Copeland: Yeah. And I won't call them problems. I'll just call them cultural examples. A big one, if you are working in the Indian marketplace or working with people who are from the subcontinent is understanding head shaking. And I'm not talking about up and down head shaking. 

I'm talking about side ways head shaking, where people are shaking their head side to side. I've been to India enough, I know Indians, you know, I've studied the culture, I'm always fascinated. I love the country. [00:16:00] And one of the first things some 10 years ago when I went there that I immediately noticed were Indians who were shaking their heads side to side. 

And I didn't know what that meant. And ultimately, I found out what that meant. It is a form of communication. It is a form of acknowledgement. Sometimes it can mean, I don't know, or they're agreeing with you. Sometimes it can mean yes and sometimes it can mean no. It is as important in that culture as in our culture when we talk about, you just said it, mm hmm, and we give these noises, these sounds that then help to string conversations along. 

Well, I've actually seen some YouTube video clips that are kind of funny about the Indian head shaking because it is a form of communication. And Wendy, what now is wildly fascinating to me is that it's not just your main to the Indian subculture. [00:17:00] I have been there and I've been to India, but I've also been to another country and I studied another country that also uses the sideways head shaking that blew my mind. 

And that's Turkey. If you watch Turkey movies, I watched a very long TV series that was produced in Turkey that went into the culture and had all their issues and stuff, love stories, etc. But they shook their heads side by side more than once. And I said, oh my goodness. didn't realize that. So I haven't done any research on that one, but that would be an interesting way to connect those two countries. 

But that's just, that's one example that that head shaking in the Indian culture is very, very significant. You may not see it that much here when you are talking to a person who is of Indian descent, but if you see Indians talking to each other, they may shake their heads side to [00:18:00] side. 

Wendy Pease: That's definitely true. I've seen it all over the internet and then I've also seen it in India and I didn't realize that Turkey did it. So you and I must have a similar Netflix playlist of watching all the foreign films and series. 

Carole Copeland: I love it.  

Wendy Pease: Okay. So how about some client examples? 

Where have you been called in where there has been miscommunication? And tell us about some of the things that you've seen that's caused the cultural misunderstandings? I love your stories.  

Carole Copeland: Thank you. So let me give you two other examples that are apropos to what we're talking about. 

One of them is my grandchildren, at my suggestion, when they were born, I did not want them calling me grandma, because it was too much of a connection with my mother. And I just didn't want to be called grandma, even though my mom has passed away. I wanted another name. And so I, being really connected to the African culture, I've been [00:19:00] to Kenya a number of times. 

And I like Swahili. So I said, okay, I want you to call me nyanya. N Y A N Y A.  

Wendy Pease: Wait, can you say that again?  

Carole Copeland: Sure. N Y A N Y A. Now, nyanya, again, when you look, this is where you have to be careful when you're pulling names from a foreign marketplace. So this worked out okay for me, but I found out after selecting nyanya, and my grandchildren now call me, they're teenagers now, they've called me nyanya their whole lives is that nyanya actually has two faces to it. Nyanya is a formal word used to formally address older grandmothers, but the informal word is bibi, B I B I. See, I found that after the fact. And [00:20:00] nyanya also means tomato. 

Wendy Pease: You're an old, respectful tomato. 

Carole Copeland: There you go. So I'm an older, respectful tomato. The fun part is that when I've gone to Kenya, I've been in Nairobi a couple of years ago and I was referencing I was proudly referencing being called nyanya and they laughed at me. They said, well, you should have, it should have been bibi because you're not a tomato. 

So again, I had to understand that from their point of view, instead of just selecting a name you know, out of a lexicon or, you know, offline based on a laundry list of Swahili names. So you need to do a little research from that point of view. So that's a fun story, I think.  

Wendy Pease: Oh my gosh, that's fantastic. I love that. 

Carole Copeland: The second one, which we could talk about forever, which does relate to some of the client [00:21:00] work that I do, is in my case, understanding different ethnic groups. And in my case, it's understanding the Black community. And that's where this iceberg comes in. I'll give you just something just off the top of my head, we could just go on and on about this, but in the Black community, particularly those Blacks who have been born and raised in the US and their roots go back in the US a couple of generations, that would be my family that goes back to the 1700s. Typically, when it comes to age and you're talking to older black people who you've just met, etc., you would tend to use miss or mister in front of their names. 

So if a 25 year old met Carole Copeland Thomas, it's not uncommon for the 25 year old to call me Miss Carole [00:22:00] because of that respect level. And what we say is that you're putting a, quote, handle in front of the name. The handle is the miss of the misses. The same thing is true for aunt and uncle or auntie and uncle in our community and with older people, maybe friends of the family, etc. It is not uncommon to use Aunt Wendy. Uncle Louis, even if the person is not part of your family. Now here is the connection, Wendy, that I find fascinating, is that that same level of respect is also attributed to some African countries and India again, so it's not uncommon. 

I've watched enough movies, I've been to the continent, been to the country many times for the word auntie and uncle to be used in respect for older people. So, I'm sure there are [00:23:00] other countries where the same thing can happen, but absolutely in the black community. It is disrespectful in a lot of ways to call an older person by their first name alone unless you have an intimate relationship with them, etc. 

Even in my case, now I'm divorced and my mother-in-law has long passed away, but throughout her life, I called her Mrs. Thomas. I never called her Verlenia, her first name. I always called her Mrs. Thomas, and I call my father-in-law, who's also passed away, Mr. Thomas. That's not uncommon in the Black community, again, because of the age differential and a level of respect. 

Wendy Pease: So it wasn't even like the, the Ms. first name. It was always Mrs. Thomas by last name, not, you know, Ms. Carole.  

Carole Copeland: In this case, correct. And so, it depends. Now, we could go into church dynamics [00:24:00] and the same thing would be true. There are people now who are older than I, who I've known many, many years, and I wouldn't dare call them by their first name. 

I would call them Mrs. Davis, the woman I'm thinking about right now. I'd never call her Elizabeth Davis. I call her Mrs. Davis and other individuals too, who I have respect for. And that can even relate to people in the clergy where out of respect you'd call them, and this is more universal. But it certainly hits home in the black community where you would call a person who is ordained Reverend versus calling them. In fact when I hear people who have known my pastors for a long time and they call them by their first name. I just sort of jump internally because like  

Wendy Pease: Okay, so now so how does that move over into the workplace, and then what kind of conflict does that cause then?  

Carole Copeland: Alright, so I go back to the [00:25:00] example I used earlier about eye contact. 

And if you come from a certain community where you don't look an older person directly in the eye, you don't shake a person's hand vigorously because of your cultural norms that are in your community, that can completely go awry in the workplace. I've seen it happen and I've had to talk about it with my clients. 

So you have a younger person who is the manager, and that manager has 25 people who they're managing. And let's say 12 of them or 13 of them are older, much older, you know, 20 years older than they are. If you are from a particular culture, it may have to be quite an adjustment to call the individual who's 20 years older than you by their first name, a Carole, a David, Matthew, etc. When you have been trained otherwise. So that is a [00:26:00] dynamic that goes on nowadays just because of the workplace and we have all the intergenerational dynamics that go on in the workplace. So that can relate to eye contact. It can relate to calling a person by their first name when you're not accustomed to that. 

It can deal with handshaking, and it can even downright deal with how decisions are made and a person's preconceived notion of an older person, respectful or not respectful, and how decisions can be made about future projects, who's going to head that project, etc.  

Wendy Pease: Well, then that gets really interesting because in some cultures that are very hierarchical, there's a lot of respect for the boss. 

So right there, you've set up a situation where the younger manager should be calling the employees by Mr. or Ms., but they're expecting the respect because they've then just achieved the [00:27:00] hierarchical top, right? That's deserving of the Mr. or Miss. So just right there, how do you call people by name? 

Carole Copeland: Right? Well, that's the adjustment of the younger person who has to probably put their cultural norms at the door, so that when they're in the workplace, the norms are not going to be respected the way that they would be if they were working with their own cultural group. So that's where a 30 year old working with a 50 year old, who normally would call the 50 year old Mr. Edwards, would call that person John, or whatever.  

Wendy Pease: Then you take it back to the United States where everybody's on first name basis and expecting that you wouldn't even know you're insulting by not calling somebody who works for you or a coworker by Mr. 

or Mrs. because it's all done on age.  

Carole Copeland: Right, right. And it's happened to me. Children who are [00:28:00] let's say in elementary school, calling me Carole. And I can't get upset because I know that that's how they have been culturalized. That's how they've been socialized. Versus, I'm talking about white kids versus black kids who would call me Miss Carole or, you know, or Miss Thomas or whatever. 

Because that's how they are being socialized at home. And again, that's a true story. And nowadays our children, school aged children, expected to call their teachers by their first names, or putting a handle on the name, like Mrs. Thomas, Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Smith, or Mr., Phillips, or whatever.  

Wendy Pease: Right. And it goes back to, neither is right, neither is wrong, but it's going to cause a lot of conflict and difficult situations. So it sounds like you had worked in a situation with the younger [00:29:00] manager with older employees and they were not happy about how they were being addressed. 

Carole Copeland: Yeah, the flip side of that is, all right, I'm looking at it from a younger person addressing an older person, in this case, calling them by their first name. This very situation played out where a younger person was managing older people and the older persons took the younger person for granted and assume they don't have much knowledge, they're younger. How can they have the experience that they have? And there was a level of resentment from the older employees to that younger manager simply based on age, which again has to be addressed because it can be handled poorly and inappropriately, particularly by older people who are making assumptions that are not always true. 

That younger person may have even more experience or [00:30:00] that person may have a level of experience that is appropriate for the workplace. And so these dynamics have to be sorted out and have to be discussed so that there's not resentment on both ends. So that's where communication comes in.  

Wendy Pease: So how do you sort out and discuss this when you've got people that are feeling resentful and angry? 

Carole Copeland: It depends on the astuteness of the manager. If the manager, I don't care what their age happens to be, if they're astute, they'll know that their workplace can be better. It can be more effective if they build closer relationships with the people they're working with. So, you know, sometimes you can have a set of circumstances where I'm the boss and everything I say is right. 

And, it's my way or the highway. Well, that's totally not going to work in this case. We've got different age groups. A younger person would have to be [00:31:00] astute enough to build conversations, build relationships with their employees, get to know them more, get to know them in a more effective way so that the guard can be down and people can have these kind of conversations where the resentment does not build up. 

So, I'm saying that it's the onus is on that manager, that supervisor, to begin those kind of conversations that can be done at lunchtime, they can be done during a staff meeting, and I'm not talking about getting into people's business, that's not what I'm saying, that's in the black community we say that, but it's just a matter of building a stronger rapport with individuals, so that you really get a chance to know them more effectively. 

 Maybe the manager, and I did this at Curry College, I recommend this elsewhere. Maybe you have one to one conversations with individuals. You have a staff of 25, you, actually schedule out 25 different meetings if you're a new [00:32:00] manager, new supervisor, maybe they're 45 minutes long, a half an hour long, the length does not matter, but you are signaling to your team, I care enough about you that I want to get to know you individually as we are working collectively as a team. 

Wendy Pease: Okay, so your steps are kind of to go in and assess the manager and see how astute they are on developing relationships. And then number two is teaching them how to build rapport .  

Carole Copeland: Correct. Okay. And to me that's the responsibility of the manager and the supervisor. That's not the responsibility of the team. 

It's the manager who has that responsibility. The team, obviously, you want the team to collectively support your efforts, but if you don't make that first initial outreach, down the line, it may not be successful for you. [00:33:00]  

Wendy Pease: So what if you're a manager and you have good relationships and rapport, say I'm managing a group in India and I'm managing a group in the United States and there's conflict between the two teams, even though I'm respected and liked in both places. 

How do you build them together?  

Carole Copeland: Well, that happens everywhere. Yeah. Again, I think it is up to that manager to figure out a way, depends on the size of the teams in the respective countries, but figure out a way to assess the strengths and the weaknesses, maybe some kind of SWOT analysis with the individuals on the teams in the respective countries. Now, I also believe that the manager is responsible for understanding the societal cultures that are in play. [00:34:00] You know, how does that figure in and factor in with how people work in Bangalore, which is an industrial area in India, versus Dallas, Texas, let's say. 

So I think, and you can do internet research, you can do it any number of ways. Probably a more effective way based on your budget is to visit these various areas so that they can physically see you. That's why some managers are on the road all the time, visiting their particular call centers, departments, et cetera, in these various countries so that they get a better feel for the individuals. 

And then based on that knowledge and that level of expertise that you are developing, figure out how can you cross culturally bring your teams together where the end goal is to reach a particular level of success or achievement for your particular company or organization that you're working [00:35:00] for. So always looking at what is that vision. 

And the vision has to be established by management, the supervisor, or certainly whatever that company vision happens to be that it collectively has been established. But in order to get to that point, you've got to understand who your team members are on an individual basis on a departmental level, etc. 

 And that's where, that's where Americans stumble. Because we look at culture through our own lenses. We're not looking at culture through the lenses of other countries and other systems and other societies.  

Wendy Pease: Okay. All right. So that's the biggest problem that you see is we're looking at culture through our own eyes, not taking the time to really dig into the other one and understand where that difference is. 

Carole Copeland: Exactly. Exactly.  

Wendy Pease: Yeah. So we're kind of running out of [00:36:00] time. As always, I've learned a ton of stuff from you. I don't even know, you know, and I consider myself pretty culturally aware, but goodness only knows how many times I've stepped on people's toes by not being aware. 

Carole Copeland: We all do that. All of us do that. And that's where, you know, there has to be a level of forgiveness as we are exploring and looking at different people and different dynamics, we're not always going to get it right the first time, but there has to be a level of understanding. 

And this is why I'm very, very concerned about where we are now as a society, where we are closing off these opportunities to learn about each other because of whatever our political way of life happens to be. I think in the long run, it's going to make it more difficult for us to understand each other as we are closing doors on these kind of cultural opportunities.[00:37:00]  

Wendy Pease: Yeah, I agree with you. Any final recommendations if people find themselves in this kind of situation on how to keep those doors open or to keep trying? I mean, those are good, you know, recommendations, but what are some other recommendations you might have?  

Carole Copeland: There's some really good videos on YouTube if you can sort of sift through them . 

I mentioned to you about the head shaking at the beginning. There's some funny but appropriate videos that have been created by Indians. In that case, where you can learn about different cultures just by these YouTube videos. And let me also say that you could also look at ethnic comedians. They can be a great source because they're talking from, they do a lot of self deprecating humor and humor from their cultural dynamics. 

So you can have fun, have a big laugh, but also learn about different cultures, listening to ethnic comedians.  

Wendy Pease: Great idea. I never would have thought of that. But if I think [00:38:00] of the comedians that I've seen, they bust on the two cultures and the differences for the situations they've been in. 

Carole Copeland: Absolutely. I can't think of this person's name, but because of where I'm living. I live in an area that has a very strong Portuguese community, not only in my town, but towns like Fall River, Massachusetts, etc. There are comedians that really cap on the Portuguese and things that they do, and they're funny. 

Really funny, but they're speaking from their own truth and it's where you can learn, they're a lot of Portuguese people keep a lot of cash at home. They believe in cash transactions. They believe in banks, but it's nothing for them to purchase cars with cash, purchase homes with cash based on cash that they have in their vaults or whatever in their homes. 

And, you can learn about that and laugh at it with Portuguese comedians.  

Wendy Pease: Oh, all right. Well, let me know next time you find a show. I'd love to go with [00:39:00] you. So, you know, I'm going to drop this question on you. I think you're prepared. What's your favorite foreign word?  

Carole Copeland: Nyanya. 

The grandma version. The respected grandma version.  

Wendy Pease: Well, that's perfect. Carole, where can people find you if they want to?  

Carole Copeland: Very easily. My name, Carolecopelandthomas. com, and that's Carole with an e. carolecopelandthomas.com.  

Wendy Pease: Oh, perfect. And I know she's all over social media and posting really good stuff. 

So also look for her on, uh, wherever you happen to hang out. Thank you so much.  

Carole Copeland: Thank you, Wendy.  

Wendy Pease: Yeah, so listeners, before you hang up, I'm sure you've run into somebody that's had a cross cultural issue, and there's a ton of good information on this, [00:40:00] so certainly share it with anybody you know, and if you wouldn't mind, give us a five star on whatever your favorite listening app is so we continue to bring great guests to you, so thanks so much, and we'll talk to you next time. 

 

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